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| - | Roy Wilhelm Talks Family History | + | [[Carl LeRoy Wilhelm|Roy Wilhelm]] Talks Family History |
| | + | *[[Interview with Roy Wilhelm, December 24, 1992]] |
| | + | *[[Interview with Roy Wilhelm, February 28, 1993]] |
| | + | *[[Interview with Roy Wilhelm, Summer 1993]] |
| | + | *[[Interview with Roy Wilhelm, October 31, 1993]] |
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| - | From an interview taped Dec. 24, 1992
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| - | Roy: The first thing I can remember the Old Man telling about himself, he . . . (said) one of our relatives, a woman, married a guy named Terry, Uncle somebody Terry, (Ed. Note: story also told with Uncle George Draper giving George the knife) and Uncle Terry took a likin' to Pa and Pa was just a little kid, 4 years old and Terry would take him with him for company when he would go up the . . . he lived in Rockville where the . . . close to where Zion's Park is and they'd go up the canyon there and cut trees. All the timber growing in the canyon, not up on the hill and he'd go with him and keep the old man company. The old man felt good about it, he gave Pa a little pocket knife, a little baby one with blades about that long and the folks didn't object, thought the boy ought to have a . . . he was just four years old, so he went to playing with the knife. He had it two or three days when he seen something and he was a runnin' to the house to tell his ma. He had the knife in one hand, but it was open, and he fell down and throwed his hand out to ketch 'im and that blade went right under his eyeball. He got up and turned loose of the knife but it didn't come out and went on to the house with this knife floppin' and he was crying and the blood was a squirtin' everthing and boy they got excited and they pulled the knife out. Word spread to the old ladies around and they all got together and kind of organized. Some of them did this and that, there wasn't any doctors--the one main thing that Pa remembered was they had to take good care of the knife, there was a part of them took care of him and the rest of them was a committee to take care of the knife. So they took it and then they left it open and they wrapped it in a greasy rag, got it all wrapped and then they put it behind the kitchen stove in a warm place to keep it comfortable. Didn't want to offend the knife. Well, Pa got a high fever, got infection and they thought they was going to lose him but after about ten days, he was a tough old guy, and lived through it and got alright. That knife went in one of these wrinkles below his eye so when it healed it didn't even show a scar. Nobody ever realized . . . it never affected his . . . it never cut any nerves or anything that was optic. He had as good a vision as anybody. Well, after pa got out, then the committee with the knife, they got it and took it and buried it in a secret place on the back of the lot, rag and all. It had a great deal to do with the cure.
| + | From an interview with his son [[John Vincen Wilhelm|John]] taped December 24, 1992 |
| - | While they was livin' there at that place, why Pa kind of got interested in Indians. Well, they had an Indian that come by and he'd mooch 'em for something to eat. Brigham Young had put out this order it's cheaper to feed 'em than it is to fight 'em. So this old boy would be there every night at the back door and knockin' on the door and he wanted all he could eat and so they put a big bowl of bread and milk or whatever they had. Finally one time he showed up but he didn't come to get anything to eat; he’d worked for somebody and they'd paid him off with a bottle of wine. He got drunker than a skunk and he climbed up on a . . . (was ya ever at Rockville? There's a bluff along one side, and these great big, old boulders, part of the bluff that hadn't weathered enough to fall plumb down, stickin' out away from the bluff . . . the highest of 'em about thirty feet high.) Anyhow, this Indian was up on a big one that was on the back of their lot, and he was drunk and had a butcher knife and he was cursin' the Mormons. He'd take a shot of wine and then he'd wave the butcher knife, "Gonna kill all the Wormons!" Pa was scared to death and he had a fear of Indians from that time on.
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| - | But they savvied that maybe they'd move to Toquerville . . . and there's where the Naegles lived; that's where he got acquainted with the Naegles. They called it Utah Dixie. That was the place where it really, really was Dixie; it was warm all the time. Somebody had traded the Wilhelms a bunch of guinea hens, and the guinea hens would just come along, just squat down and lay an egg wherever they . . . you could go look at the yard and here's eggs all over the yard. They never set on the eggs, but the eggs would lay there and it was such even temperature, that directly, why one of 'em would hatch. You had eggs and little guinea hens all over the place. Pa thought that was quite a thing. He always wanted to try guinea hens up around Vernon but he was 'fraid it was so cold they couldn't even live up there. That's where they got acquainted with the Naegles, not knowin' that part of the Naegle family and the Wilhelm family would be called to come out to Arizona later.
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| - | I don't know whether they moved back to Orderville, or where they was when they got the call to go . . . I think they went back to Orderville . . . the call to move to Arizona and so they struck out . . . Yeah, that's right! Grandpa was the first guy that put his stock into the Order, and when the Order began to break up, that's when he got called to pull his stuff out and leave . . . They were all farmin' around there, the Gibbonses, the Naegles and all of 'em, they were never satisfied. I don't know why. But those Orderville people were satisfied. Pa didn't know too much about the workings of the Order; he thought it was a big failure and a lot of other stuff. But it wasn't. I read a little thing about it, and then I got a hold of a copy of the Kane County History and it told about the Order, and it was very much a good thing.
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| - | Well, on the way to Arizona, another family . . . was on a wagon train, comin' through and the Wilhelms signed on that same wagon train to come to Arizona. It was the Maxwell family. There was an Andrew Maxwell; he was nine years old, like Pa . . . they were best friends on that trip . . . travelled together, and when they was off helpin' drive cattle along the side, they teamed up and did it together and they was chums all the way. It took six weeks to make the trip, and when they came to the place where the road forked, and the Wilhelms was to take the Concho road, and the Maxwells was called to go to Round Valley, they stopped and cooked dinner and had a little friendly ceremony. Pa and Andrew Maxwell vowed that they would never lose track of each other; they'd stay in touch. So he lived up there and was raised there, Pa's folks went up to Vernon, and it was sixty-two years, or something like that, before they met again. Andrew Maxwell got to be cattle inspector and he had some deal in connection with his job to go to Show Low so he took the trouble of comin' by the ranch. That's the funniest thing you ever seen, two old guys puzzlin' . . . over each other! They was still friends. Took a long time to get back together.
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| - | When the Wilhelms got here, why they settled in Concho and then the old man was a rustlin' around, he'd driven quite a lot of cattle with him, he took part of his stuff in cash and part of it in cattle and drove the cattle alongside. So they was pretty well fixed when they come . . . and he was knocking around and discovered the wonderful grazing up on the mountains, just right for cattle so he took Goodman . . . Goodman's old millstead now . . . John: They already had a foot in Concho by then? ...Roy: Yeah, course he pulled the deal with old what's his name. Him and Flake bought the land, it was squatters right all around Concho. The Mexicans had no idea those guys could make a go of it. They just couldn't envision that they was going to move a lot of people in there and make a town, see. They was just goin' to get what they could off of 'em and never see 'em again. They didn't believe they could do anything. So Grandpa was in on that. Grandpa had used his homestead right up in Utah but he discovered this little cove up there, oh whats his name you been there . . . and it appealed to 'em and they wanted it, so Grandma. I'm adding a lot here, details to make it clear. I don't have any Wilhelm stuff to back that up, I do have a letter from two of the Apostles when the trouble come along, the polygamy. Wrote (the Apostles) to Grandpa and both of 'em signed it and advised him to take the younger woman and go down on the border and get away from here so they couldn't pin polygamy on him. And let Lydia stay there and prove up on her homestead and that's where I get this, otherwise he would, made himself a homestead, well he . . . John: So when he went up to McKay Spring he wasn't eligible to homestead? Roy, Well, no. John: What was he going to do with the cabin up there, just water his cattle? Roy: Just squat. John: A place to run his cattle? Roy: A lot of guys did that, they just had a camp, a cow camp. John: And they didn't stay there very long, did they, before they had trouble with the Indians? Roy: The Indians run them out they never went back. When they moved up there for the summer, this was summer and winter in Concho, why Uncle Haight, he was a big boy three years older than Pa. Pa'd be at least ten by then if it took them a year to get settled in Concho, see. Uncle Haight be about thirteen or fourteen, so he'd go punching cows with the old man, I know that because I left home when I was thirteen and I went punching cows with the old man. So they went out one day gathering in the strays, they was keeping them from straying, they was cattle and they wanted to go back to Utah and they'd go anywhere to get away from where they were. They had to locate 'em, they called it. Just bringing 'em back all the time. This Indian bunch come along and it was Grandma with all the little kids there about a 100 yards from the spring. The Indians they kept a jabberin' and making motions over at the house and everything and finally they put their warpaint on, that's what they always did when they exterminated a bunch of ranchers, they'd get their warpaint on. I don't know what part that had, it made it alright, I guess. Well, Grandma knew they were in for a bad time but it was time for the kids to eat and they needed some water to drink and there wasn't any. She knew if she went out there and the Indians grabbed her, which they most likely would, the kids wouldn't have any water and they wouldn't have any mother either. So she had a long tom rifle (like an old Kentucky muzzle loader) there and she had it positioned there where she could put it out through the window or port hole. She told Pa and Aunt Fan, the sister just younger than him, to take the bucket and go to the spring. The Indians was all around the spring, had possession of it, and get a bucket of water and no matter what they did stand right up to them, look them in the eye and tell them what they thought. The Indians didn't know English but they'd understand anyhow if they told 'em. So Pa was brave and he went and the Indians start messing with him and he just got all over 'em and they thought it was funny but they respected him see. But Grandma was laying back there and what the Chief to that Indian bunch didn't know, she had a dead sight on him all the time. If they'd ever laid a hand on those kids, why she'd kill the chief first and according to Indian tradition if you killed the chief in a war party the rest of 'em'd run. Without leadership they just didn't know what to do. Well, the kids they played it tough, filled their bucket. And the Indians, they turned if off to kind of a jovial thing and bowed and scraped to 'em and let 'em go and bring the water on back. They kept lookin' at the cabin and jabberin' and finally they decided it was bad medicine and they got on their horses and headed on. Well it wasn't very long after that until a rider, perhaps the next day, the rider came by to tell them to get off the mountains that they . . . that the Indians had declared war on all white men. And they was going to kill the best one first, that 'd be old man Cooley. He'd married three or four Indian girls. So the Wilhelms loaded up and come to Malpai with their cattle. Now I don't know how come they got in at Malpai at that time. I feel sure that if we checked the dates why ol' Sol Luna still had it at that time. He was the big sheep man in the west and he used that as a dippin' place. Just run his sheep in from New Mexico round and round. Well, they got settled there and they ran the cattle the rest of that summer there. The Indians got worse and finally the war was on for good and here come a runner and told them, "Come along in the evening and don't wait till morning. The order is to tell every rancher, everybody, to go to St. Johns. No matter what religion you are or what color you are. Go to St. Johns and bunch up there for safety." I guess Snowflake was another strong point. But that's where they had to go so Pa said they got them in the wagon and after that Indian experience up there, he was pretty Indian wise and scared and he was telling about when they'd drive them as fast as they could in the dark and he was lookin' out the covered wagon, they had to cover up bout that way so they could see out. Said he'd get to imagin' he could see Indians ridin' along with their bows and arrows, keepin' up with him on both sides and then he'd shake his head and it ud' come to him that it wasn't. It was just his imagination. He'd get fearin' to see if he could see 'em and he always told us guys if you peer hard enough you'll see what you're lookin' for. So they moved in here (St. Johns) and they had an election. They organized and there was all these different factions there. There was the Jewish merchants, the Mexicans, there was the outlaws that was outlaws and their counterparts, the guys that had been sent by the government as officials for the county, everything was appointed, see. There was them and anyhow, they were all at each other's throats, they didn't trust each other, see. But here comes B.H. Wilhelm and they all liked him, he was kind of like Andy, he was a good mixer and a good drinker and they liked him and so they trust him and they all centered on him as the captain of the guard. And they put him on the payroll and he was the captain of the guard. And so he, I don't know how long he was here, 2 years anyway I guess, as captain of the guard. John: While keeping the place in Concho? Roy: They undoubtedly went to the place in Concho and worked some and done something and then moved over there after it quieted down, how long he was on that salary I don't know, but while he was here he did a good deal of gambling with the guys, knew all the, he was friend to everybody and he was the big man in the militia.
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| - | The sheriff had a guy in jail. Did you ever see that old jail was over there? Well, it was in that and (they) had a guy in there, he was a crazy guy, a guy named Aaron Adair. He was a real nut, he was violent and they chained him like a bear. Chained him up in there and along with all else, why the Wilhelms had the contract of feeding the prisoners when there was prisoners. So the old man he was off on his daily duties but they appointed, I guess Haight had something else to do and my Dad, it fell his chore to go and carry the food over there to the prisoners. They made him a mark, see, for as far as that chain come, so (if) he didn't go inside that, old thing couldn't get im'. And he said old Aaron Adair'd just plead with him to come over and visit with him. Pa was too wise. When he was through eatin' why Adair would come and push the things over the line. Pa'd get a broom and rake 'em back. Then another chore, another thing that he had, they had (a) poker game, all night poker game, every night. The guys didn't trust each other, if one man was a winnin' too much and they couldn't catch him he was slick. If they'd a caught him there'd a been a shooting. But if they couldn't catch him why they'd just, some guy when it come his turn to deal, he'd just take the deck they was playing with and take part of the cards out of the deck anyway, ya know and rip 'em in two and just throw 'em out on the floor, order a new deck and they'd start playing with a new deck. And that happened four or five times a night, that some guy that was a havin' hard luck would tear up part of the deck. But the cards were all just alike. They were all bicycle cards except the ones that had been tore up, see, and they're on the floor. Well, Grandpa got Pa a job a sweepin' out the pool hall, the gamblin' place there, kind of straightenin' things up, so he took an interest in cards and he, that's one thing, the old man always played cards and believed in that part of it, 'cause it was part of his boyhood, see and he would gather those cards up and pick out the clean ones that wasn't get messed up, guys spittin' tobacco on 'em or something and he would make up decks and trade these decks around town. Make whole decks out of (them), he run quite a little trade there doing that and made himself a little money, and (end of tape side one)
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| - | All the time there, Grandpa's interest in Concho was more and more and this homestead of Lydia's, they had to get on it and stay on it or they'd lose it. They built one of the best houses in the country. Grandpa was a carpenter by trade and he was good workman, I guess. And he built that house that was going to be the old ancestral home and they built a big house. And Grandma was an exceptional cook, somehow the Wilhelms always was kind of particular about how the way their stuff tasted. And when the church authorities would come through and they'd come over to Snowflake and then they wanted to come on to St. Johns, they'd always time it so they could stay with the Wilhelms in Concho. Well, it was quite an honor but it was expensive and worked out both ways, everybody was satisfied. And grandpa'd planted a big orchard there, several orchards and improved their place and everything, but then come the polygamy stuff. And these, the Apostles, they had four or five of 'em all the time down here ridin' herd on these people and they had to advise them. And so the Church members did what they asked 'em to, so they advised Grandpa, in that letter, to get the younger woman and go down, to follow the mountains down into Old Mexico and leave Lydia to prove up on her homestead. John: Let me ask you a question about that homestead. Didn't they buy squatters rights from the original settlers? Roy: That was on all the land, where they had the squatters rights but this was outside of that purchase. He found this little glade and they just homesteaded it extra. Flake wasn't in on it, see. John: So grandma had filed homestead on it under her name since he'd already used his homestead rights in Utah. Roy: Yeah, that's how come. So, I'm a kind of a detective, maybe it isn't a good thing to be a detective when you're playin' around with your ancestors but here grandpa had orders to go down there and he had orders to take a family on the road with him and you just can't thumb your way. You gotta have something to eat and they were already established there in Concho, so it was one of two things they had a little money and he took the money and left two boys there, teenage boys, to make a living for their mother and the family. And here the detective part comes in. He come to the country in 1881 (1878.) That's when they first took up that place in Concho and it was in '84, probably the last part of '84, that he got this letter, it's dated there, to leave. That's not many years. He got paid off a hundred to one when he left the Order up there and he was broke when he left to go down over the mountains, would indicate to me he was a damn poor poker player. But anyhow, be that as it may, you can include that in your writings if you want to but it is, a little gambling, is a long time trait in both families that cropped up from now and then, we got it from the Harris family on the other side too. All because Uncle David Aldridge got lucky in San Bernardino one time. He married a Harris, incidentally, Uncle Bill's sister. He got lucky and won, oh almost a hundred-thousand dollars in a poker game. Two big bags of gold. It was all he could do to load 'em on a horse and course he didn't figure that he'd ever get where he was going with those. The poker game broke up just after daylight see, between daylight and sunup and those other guys didn't figure he'd get to goin' where he was goin'. But he had two what they called horse pistols, big long barreled pistols and he had them already on his saddle loaded full blast. And they didn't know about that and when he went aboard he got out in the middle of the street and he hit a run with the horse, see and he would have really fogged anything up that moved on the side but he made it, made it to where he had backin'. And anyhow, on account of that game why he was always considered a very smart man by the Harris family and quite a few of 'em done a little poker playin' on account of it. John: Now his name being Aldridge, was he any relation to John Harris' wife, whose maiden name was Aldridge? Roy: Yeah, that's right. Harris also married an Aldridge. See what I mean? John: Yeah, John Harris married an Aldridge. Some relative of hers married another Harris? Roy: Yeah. John: Some double cousins there somewhere. Roy: Yeah, then there was a bad thing happened there. There was some of John Harris' kids, er yeah cousins, married some of the other family, see some of the Aldridges that were cousins, first cousins marrying first cousins and it didn't pay off. There was some kind of bad family traits that they got magnified in that deal, which happens a lot where people get to intermarrying and it just doesn't work out. Well, they had mental troubles these descendants of Uncle David's and they it just wasn't right. Some of them I guess had to be . . . uh put in . . . John: They were committed. Roy: Yeah, committed, yeah. And that's where that old saying comes from, "we are committed." Now, let me see I've brought ya . . . John: him being a poor poker player, when he left for Mexico he was broke. Roy: It just adds up. That's not very long, that's not very many years and he was drawing a salary over there, he was drawing a salary here in St. Johns for being captain of the guard along with the rest, my detective mind just got busy on it and matched all these things up. John: Didn't rumor have it that the old man had a drinking problem? Roy: Oh, yeah, he did. John: Spent some of the money that way, no doubt. Roy: Yea Well I didn't know very much about him after he got down there until I got ahold of a book that his boy wrote, no his grandson wrote, and the old man went plumb off the deep end down there drinkin' and he got so he'd come home and kind of rough his wife up and Marion didn't like that, he was the same age as Pa, only a half-brother, see. According to that book that Ben wrote, Benjamin Franklin, his son wrote, the old man come home and started to roughing his mother up and the kid come in and seen him and just reached out the door where they had a single tree leanin' up there, about that long and they were about that big around, made out of hickory. It was a perfect club and he laid 'er up there across the old man there, I guess he tried to kill him, but he knocked the old man just colder than a wedge and then he knew he was through around there, there was no use both of them trying to live under the same roof, so he shoved off and went down into Old Mexico and went to work at a mining, for a mining engineer down there. The mining engineer kind of took over an tutored him along and made a whole new story of its own. Well, Grandpa went on over to Silver City following the mines. John: Do we know how long he was in Mexico before he went over there? Roy: I don't have an idea. J OHN: A FEW YEARS ANYWAY? Roy: Yeah, he spent a lot more time down there than he ever spent here around Apache County before he went over there. And finally he got Bright's disease something to do with his drinkin', they say. Bright's disease so they say the kidneys begin to crystallize and turn to salt. That's all I know. The doctors 'ud probably dispute that but, handed down to me that's what's called Bright's Disease. It was a killer. You only had so long to live. Finally when he was on his death bed, they was all gathered up and they expected him to go any time and he was kind of, tried to lighten the situation, thought they could use their time better if it was their last visit, to kind of cheer each other up a little. So he jumped out on his bed, danced a good jig for 'em, really hoed 'er down, fell down on the bed and died. That's what Uncle Art said, he was an eye witness. Well, they buried 'im. John: Well, if Uncle Art was there and he was already in the family this was quite a few years later. Roy: Yeah, he'd married the little girl that went with pa out to get water when the Apaches was up there. John: She's younger than your dad was, Roy: Just younger than my dad. John: So several years had elapsed? Roy: Yeah, and so the old man died and they buried him there in the Silver City graveyard and then there come a hell of a flood and it washed out eight graves. And the old man's was one of 'em and they never found one trace of him or his coffin or any sign any where and they had an organized search of the whole flood course all the way to the Rio Grande 'cause the Rio Grande was on a big flood too and after that there was no use lookin'. John: Did they recover any of the eight persons that were washed away? Roy: I don't know about the others but Uncle Art said they never, they just couldn't find not one little scrap of anything that you could say this is part of . . . probably the others the same. John: Well, if that had been buried there for quite some time it probably made a pretty good raft, huh? Roy: Yeah, he might have gone to sea. There have been several instances where a coffin has been washed out, see, out of a graveyard and dumped into the sea and it makes a sea voyage. It's a perfect thing . . . Well, now we come back to Concho. For awhile Haight was makin' a living for them, for the family. John: How many younger brothers and sisters were there, or no other brothers just sisters? Roy: There was another brother, John. He was young, he was just a toddler and Aunt Fan was I don't know, yeah Aunt Fan was there with them 'cause she wouldn't have gone with the other woman, see and Zora, she was younger than Fan, (not) she was there and there was those two girls and John, guess that's it. And pa. John: 5 kids? Roy: 5 kids. (6 also Clarissa Isabell?) Well, they had a hell of a time, first the Mexicans, they tried to starve them out, then they got to feelin' sorry for them and gave them a little work, see, but they just damn near starved to death but they had the best damn place in the whole country there. Some things you can't raise and when your clothes wears out, it's hard to produce them on a farm. They had the Greer boys, about the only friends they had but they didn't, they might as well, probably been better off without 'um sometimes and Pa was a tellin' about when Cleveland's time, it was a great depression before the turn of the century, when Grover Cleveland was in and he was elected on a certain thing that he guaranteed to do and everybody told him, says, it'll throw the country into a panic but he didn't think so but he kept his word and for 4 years they had "Cleveland's time" and there was just no money, it just went out of circulation and that was it. There was for 2 years there wasn't even a cattle buyer at any price for the steers that was raised in this country and the sheep men could sell a little wool on account of the government used it for uniforms for the soldiers, but the meat they couldn't sell. Well, they had to shear those sheep and it was a nasty job and somehow they got started off they had to pay for that and they only guys that had any money was the sheepmen and they had to pay for the shearing and everybody wanted to shear sheep for them, even the Greer boys. Pa and Haight, they got a job shearing sheep and so did the Greer boys. Pa says they was a shearin' away there and the Greer boys was down there really getting with it and oh they hated it. They were the ones that would hold their nose when they rode up to the camp to visit with Pa and Haight 'cause they were sheep men, see, hold their nose all the time they visited, they couldn't stand the smell here they are down in the bottom a shearin' sheep so these two old big fat Mexicans got up there and oh, you never seen a dandy till you've seen those old Mexican sheep men, dressed up you know, they always wore suits, tailor made suits, see and they was on a, put on a new one and here they'd go a chain here with an elks tooth hangin' on it, it fastened on one side and there was a watch pocket over here and they could look at the time, lot of crap like that. Well they got positioned up there and they each lit a cigar and they pretended that they didn't know the Greer boys was there and one of 'em says "they tell me the Greer boys do not like sheep, I wonder why they don't like sheep?" the other one said, "That is a false statement my friend, the Greer boys like sheep, look at them. They are hugging them! They love them!" Pa said if those Greers 'd of had a pistol they'd a killed those two Mexicans, he knew damn well. There was nothing they could do about it, they had to have that money and they put up with that kind of insults. Better not play that tape to the Greers, it won't be too popular. That ain't part of their script at all. Well, finally there was one old man over there, an old Mexican man, come to Pa and Haight and says, "Why don't you boys go into the sheep business, that's where the money is, if you have stock, why you're all right. Unless you can cash in on your share of this grass, you just as well give it up. Well, they couldn't go into the sheep business, they couldn't even pay taxes, He says, "I'll tell you what, now these old sheep are doomed to die, maybe she's pregnant, and in the spring she would have just as good a lamb as any other sheep but she won't live. She won't have teeth; she can't keep up, she'll die. So every sheep man knows 'em they can go through and they can tell you just which ones won't. He says, "I'll let you have all that are in my herd for a dollar apiece, and pay for it when you can, I won't get nothing otherwise. When you can! Someday; years! And I'll spread the word to the others and some of 'em 'll take it up." And some of um did. And said, "You boys have raised all this feed." They were working son of a guns, but they'd raised this feed cause they had nothing else to do and then nothing to feed it to, see, and that's what they did. They bought those sheep on time, dollar a head. They went in the sheep business that way. After a few years, Pa said it never dawned on him until suddenly, he was a riding along and he had a new saddle and a new fat horse and following two herds of sheep to the mountains, check book in his pocket, he still thought he was poor. John: Were they still teenagers when that happened or just young men? Roy: Yeah, They were teenagers when that happened on account of Haight was supposed to get married and eventually Pa. John: Wonder at what point in time did they decide to go homestead up at Vernon? Roy: Well, that comes along with what is known as the "Concho curse." The people in Concho, the Mormons that, they put the names in a hat, see, they put the description of land, see, so many acres when they got all their people that wanted to settle there. They had these plots surveyed and numbered they put 'em in and a man comes up and pays his money and draws out of there it's up to him what he got and over to Concho there was part of that land that was sandy loam where the sand had washed down over this clay and mixed in with it until it wasn't clay soil anymore but it was had enough clay in it that to hold the moisture and nutrients and it was good. Good land and bad land. The bad land, when it rained you couldn't even walk across it cause you got about that much mud on each foot, that old sticky mud. Well, those guys had a hell of a time getting their seed back, but the guys with the good land, man, Concho was all right. It was the garden spot of Arizona, they called it. Well these people that had the bad land, they concocted a scheme. Why not take the water that they impounded there in the Concho Reservoir and ditch it down the stream course? Down to the Hunt valley, where it was all good land, down where Doc Ellsworth was and then they could all have good land. But these other guys cited 'em to the fact that the evaporation on that much ditch, the evaporation and sinkage would lower the stream 'til none of them would have anything when it got down there. Well they hung on that point. They even got to where they were takin' their guns to church with them. All belonged to the same church, see. Then they got to where they wouldn't go to church at all and it was just a bad situation. So they sent one of the apostles to straighten it out, so he would talk to one faction and the other faction and the other faction trying to get 'em something, a little common ground. And they couldn't, the longer he was there the worse it got. Finally he decided that it was a lost cause and there was just nothing could be done about it, cause these people wasn't gonna budge. Anything was said about it, crystalized it more than ever. So he advertised that he had the solution to the whole thing and to come and have one big meeting. And he beat the bushes until they all got out to see what he had to say. And he told 'em that the situation was beyond human power to resolve it and that he had the authority to release them from their call as colonizers. And he says, "I release you from your call. You're free to go where you want to. Concho is no more as far as the church is concerned. I release you with this prophecy: That Concho will wither and die like a melon on a dead vine." Which it has. John: And this was all found in Church records? Roy: Yeah, and I had to go to Church records to finally find out what the war was over, why they got so bad. Then I found it in church records, course that's part of that detective work. I just matched it up with when they, the dates coincided, so I decided that's what split 'em up, see and here we have the Apostle they, disbanded. People began to move out they didn't hold church there anymore, well, there was a bishop, always, right down 'til way in the thirties. But then the old sheep men, it wasn't as good like it used to be. You know you can't overstock the range forever and we've seen that and then another thing, some s.o.b. come in here with a well auger, that was the Cowleys. A well drill. Now it used to be the people that owned the Malpais out there and Blood tanks and the big Ortega lake and the spring at Floy. If you had a water hole you controlled the range. It was just like havin' a deed to it, all around it for as far as a cow can walk and back in a day. That's how much you had if you had a water hole. So here comes the well auger and any old cowboy that got a few hundred dollars, found a good location and he had him a good spring. John: That wasn't these Cowleys that are here now, that was their father probably? Roy: Yeah, old man Graham Cowley. These guys just carried on the business. John: Well, is that about when your Dad and Uncle Haight decided to go homestead at Vernon? Roy: Yeah, when this breakup come. It was all over there for them. Their friends, the people they were raised with, they were all movin' out. They were on the range see, and they had learned to, incidentally, grandpa still had a remnant of his cows and when he got out of this here "captain of the guards," he'd lost his squatters right up at Valle Bonito, the old Goodman set, so he made a deal with the Mexicans at Mineral. Rented a house and moved his cattle up there, that was his headquarters. Well, while they were there and Haight and Grandpa was still riding herd on this big bunch of cattle, the Mexicans had raised down in the Scott place, that meadow down there, they'd raised a barley patch, a big barley field and they didn't have the way of gatherin' it that we have nowadays and time they got through mowin' and gatherin' up there was about, well, just too much of this crop still down there but it was just goin' to waste so anybody was welcome to go pick it up by hand and my Dad found out that it was worth five dollars a hundred pounds and that he could thresh it by hand, gather it up by hand and thresh the stuff by hand and eventually git him five dollars, so he did that. Well that's quite a chore for a little kid to do that, see. He wanted the money, he'd seen a pair of boots down to St. Johns or Concho in a store and that's what he was aimin' at. Those boots were five dollars, red boots, red leather boots. So when he got it done he says to his Dad when he went for supplies, he says, "I saved this up, a hundred pounds here and I want those boots. Will you sell this barley for me and bring back the boots?" And Grandpa told him yes, throwed the sack in and never said anymore about it. Pa never heard of the boots anymore and there was a gap between him and his Dad like there was between me and Pa, see, so they didn't talk things over, see, and Pa held that against his Dad till the day he died. John: Never did quiz him about it just held a grudge? Roy: Never did quiz him about it. Maybe the old man accidently forgot it, as drunk as he was when he got back, forget a lot of things. John: When they had the breakup at Concho they decided to homestead in Vernon? Roy: Right. Now the Wilhelms are capable people, but they got two things they got to watch. Don't get started with his beak in a whiskey flask and don't get to gamblin'. I whipped gambling not by quittin' it, I whipped it by outfigurin' 'em. I did it scientifically and I won a little money, but it's not good. The deal with gambling, you don't get there from calmly, coolly and collectively out playin' the other guy, unh-uh, it's that old throwin' your money in and takin' that long chance. That's gamblin'. That's the thing that gits ya. John: Now when they went up and homesteaded at Vernon how long was it before your Grandma moved up there? She sold out at Concho didn't she, to move up there? Roy: Yeah, she sold out at Concho and she took up a homestead. John: That's when Candelarias bought that place from her right? Roy: I don't, I never, I'm sure that Roman's got the papers on it. John: I was just thinkin' I heard that somewhere. Roy: Yeah, well, that's logically, that's right. Roman didn't buy it, some other guy bought it and Roman bought it from a second there was two or three owners there. John: Oh, ok. When Grandma went to Vernon was that a homestead or did she just buy that with the proceeds of her Concho sale? Roy: No, she put up a homestead, see. Time they got up there, John Wilhelm was old enough that he was married and had a little bunch of cattle and he homesteaded. (Ed. note: In Gloria Andrus' book she states that John and his wife Luella homesteaded in Vernon in 1907) Ya had Haight's homestead and Pa's homestead, side by side. And John's was on the west of Haight's where the west side of Vernon is on Haight's homestead, just a quarter of a mile strip there was Haight's and John's bordered onto that thing there toward the knoll and Grandma's was over in the flat there west of John's and that's the way it was. (Ed. note: Why, if B.H. could not homestead twice, could his wife?) John: Now how come was it that your Dad had a house over on Grandma's place the same time he was maintaining that homestead? Roy: Well he built that house there because she was an old lady and she got old and needed somebody close to her so he built this log house on her homestead, she already lived there, so he could live there and be close to her, chop wood for her, etcetera. John: That one Forest Service document that I got said something about he was having trouble getting a reliable water source on his homestead, so he was staying off the site. Maybe that had something to do with it too. Roy: Well yeah. John: Till he could get him a well. Roy: That was a convenient thing. He had dug a couple of wells and they were dry. He was diggin' farther out in the flat, see and the farther out in the flat you get the deeper the water is, it's just as good a water but it's deep. John: Out in a cinder cone. Roy: Yeah, that's right. John: Well now, we've talked about John, he married somebody and I read about him and his troubles in a Rothlisberger book, he must have married a Rothlisberger. (Ed. note: He married Luella Hall June 25, 1906. After John's death on June 9, 1911, she married a Rothlisberger.) Roy: Yeah, he did. John: But what about the two sisters, Zora and Fan, what do you know about their . . . ? Roy: Zora went down to, now wait, there was a girl that married a Rogers fellow and he went up with this homestead drive and he homesteaded "John Dutch's" place, John Rothlisberger's place and then he moved off and turned his equity over to John and John homesteaded. It happened all the time. You'd buy a homesteader out; buy his squattin' rights, get him out and you'd file on it, see. Now what was her name, oh that's Zora. John: Zora was the one that married the Rogers? Roy: Yeah and he went down to over the mountains. John: Down to Mexico? Roy: Yeah, I guess through, see they were one family and he was corresponding with this other family, Marion's family, down there, that was the attraction. Went down there to work in the mines or something, he went down there and that's why we've got that Rogers bunch down there now. We have relatives down there, the Rogers. However, can't think of his name, the main one of them, he died and he had kids. John: By the main one you're not talking about the one that married your Aunt Zora? You're talking about somebody later than him? Roy: Yeah, his posterity. And then another girl went down, I can't think of her name, she was the baby of the bunch, to live with them. John: So there must have been six kids left in Concho? Roy: Yeah. John: When B.H. headed out. Roy: Yeah, and she married a guy named Gibbs, a policeman down there. I remember when the Gibbs family come up here a visitin' us and we played with, there was Bert Gibbs, a little guy and can't think of the girls' names, two of them. John: Those were your first cousins? Roy: Yeah, first cousins. They're down there somewhere or their posterity. Soon lose a family. John: Yeah, that's why I wanted to get some of these names, you're the only one that remembers this stuff. Roy: Now you take Ben F. Williams. He was the mayor, his dad was before him. And he was the mayor of Douglas and I corresponded with him, I made him a present of the History and he, what was I going to tell you about him, anyway he's a nice guy. Oh, he's in, oh what I was going to tell you about him, he's in genealogy, he's not a religious guy but he's got this thing about genealogy and he sent me a whole bundle, we'll get it and dig into it . . . John: Tell me what you know, family lore wise, about the Wilhelm line. We only started at Rockville. How did they come to be in Rockville in the first place? Roy: Oh you mean to go back to grandma Clarrissa, huh? John: Yeah, go back as far as you remember, as far as you know anything about. Roy: Well, the furthest I know is tradition about this old man, now it was handed down that his name was Johannas Katronis, but I don't think there was ever such a man. I think he was trying to be funny, for his grandkids, making up a name for himself see because John A. Wilhelm is the old man that's buried back there. John: Back in New York? Roy: Yeah, and the descendents claim him as, you know the other descendents, not ours that come west, that that's the old man. John: So do you suppose he's the one that deserted the Prussian army and swam the Rhine river and all that, hitchhiked across the Atlantic? Roy: Well he might have been, kind of color up his stories. John: Yeah, some of that may have been entertainment value. Roy: Yeah that's right because some of the things that they've handed down an it's leaked to me around by other people, like some guy named Carroll up there, that's . . . John: Paul Wayne Carroll. Roy: Yeah and people like that, they don't have this swimmin' the Rhine river. But the hell of it is, the old man, the tradition come down through our family said that he had a knapsack full of bread, he'd saved it so he'd have stuff to eat when he deserted and a razor, a big razor. And I didn't see the razor, somebody stole it from the ranch up there before I was big enough to know there was a razor. My dad said the blade on that razor was that long, (indicated about ten inches) just a giant thing, and the old man swam the Rhine river with that. John: Which your Dad had and he got it from his Dad, along with the story. Roy: That's right. But the rest of them, they didn't get it that he swam the Rhine and was a deserter. He worked his way over on a freighter. Maybe if he was on the docks when the German army, I don't suppose he'd wear a sign around on his back saying, "I'm the old boy that deserted the army and swam the Rhine river with a razor and a knapsack full of bread and I've got me a job now and I'm goin' to the States." John: Now is there a generation between John A. Wilhelm and B.H.? Roy: Yeah, oh yeah John Benjamin was John A's (son) or whoever that old man's name was. He probably got two or three names. In fact look at the Wilhelms now, we don't know whether we're Wilhems or Williams. We've kicked it back and forth playin' ping pong with the name. But he probably did that, being a deserter, he probably had two or three titles that he swung back and forth. That's what fouls it up. John: John Benjamin's the one that pulled up stakes when they was fighting over the old mans estate? Roy: That's right. He's the one that pulled out he's the one that died and buried. Clarrissa, old grandma Clarrissa, got the black eyebrows like I got and like Andy's got, your boy. And he joined the church. John: After he'd already drug up from New York and headed west, is when he ran into the church or was he already a member back there when he split? Roy: Well their first move was to the west New York. I think that's where they joined the church. But he got tuberculosis, I guess, at the Mississippi river. He intended to go across the plains but he was too sick to make it. So she drifted on down to where they had been down in Missouri where the mobs had run them out but she didn't tell them she was Mormon. You've read her letter haven't you? John: I was going to say, we have an account of hers don't we, for a lot of that history? Roy: Well that's the guy; she buried him there, plus three kids and just had the two boys left. (Ed. Note: According to genealogy records, James Return, Susan Clarissa, Bateman Haight and Ellen Albinia were alive when they left Missouri.) And then this Holliday, this wagon master, was lookin' for a good cook. And she was a good cook and so she signed on to cook for him and his out riders for passage for her and the two boys. John: And who were the two boys? Roy: Haight and James. John: B.H., the same old B.H. that we were talking about earlier? Roy: Yeah, the one that got hit on the head with the single tree. James went back for a visit. John: Oh he's the one she never heard from again; never knew what happened to him. Roy: Never knew what happened to him. And that damn singer back there, Andy Williams. Williams fits right in there, looks enough like, did up to a certain point, like Uncle Haight's kids did when they were young, twenty year olds. I don't know, if I knew how to go about it I'd try and see. I figure that what he did he just told her he was workin' to get a little more grub stake to come on out. He probably fell for some girl and she was anti-Mormon and he just washed his hands of the whole thing and stayed there. Went back to, well they were already Williams. They were Williams when they went there. They went back to Wilhelm when they come down here to Arizona. The church told them, on account of genealogical things, to take it back. Then they told the old man when he went on to Mexico, better swing back. So it was Williams down there.
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| - | From an interview Feb. 28, 1993
| + | ==Pa and the knife== |
| - | ......that bunch up at Mineral and Grandpa knew him, the whole family knew him. They was brothers lived up there and this one brother got mad and killed the other one and so the law picked him up. So he got some rich Mexican that he knew to sign bail so he could get out. So he went over to New Mexico visitin' around and he was gone for about four or five months. And when he come back the rich Mexican that had signed his bail bond, he'd been worried all that time, he didn't know the guy was goin' to go over there visitin' around and so he went down and told the sheriff, he says, "If he ever comes back, why I'm not on his bail anymore, lock him up." So here comes the guy . . . oh, it was some guy in New Mexico, Sol Luna or somebody like that, and says, "Give this to the sheriff when you go over there." This letter, it was sealed and when they got over here it was tellin' the sheriff, "I'm not a goin' his bond anymore." So they locked him up. Well, it happened over a period that St. Johns and Vernon was a district, and he (B.H. Wilhelm) was the justice of the peace over there so the preliminaries had to be held over there to find out whether he was guilty enough to be bound over to trial in the Superior Court, so they had him there. And there was a bunch of his friends from up at, friends and relatives up at Vernon and Mineral, come down there (Concho) to get him and take him home. They figured it was all cut and dried if all else failed, they knew old Wilhelm was their friend. So Gramps, he found plenty of evidence that he'd killed his brother and done it in cold blood. So he bound him over to appear over to St. Johns. Then the sheriff had gone back and left Grandpa responsible, so when he bound him over he just had his buddy there. They got the guy, got the handcuffs on him, and handcuffed him to the buggy and they headed out. These other s.o.b.'s, they didn't know what to do about it, so they rode for reinforcements and they damn near killed a bunch of good horses. They run 'em all the way to Mineral. I guess they changed there, told ol Casimiro Padilla about it. "Boy," he says, "we'll ketch 'em, we'll ketch 'em 'fore they get to St. Johns, if they's just in a buggy." And Pa said when the old man topped the black ridge over here they could see the s.o.b.'s come out of the narrows up the Big Hollow there. Big cloud of smoke and they were runnin'. An army of Mexicans, tryin' to cut him off. But he just put those old ponies into a gallop and come on over the hill. When he found out he'd lost, old thing, why he went back. Now he didn't have anything against Grandpa. He wanted to get that guy loose he'd a killed Grandpa to get him. You see he had a life of some kind over there after all this Indian trouble and everthing and all this is baled into, it might have been a long three years, but it was from 1881 to 1884. (Mormon Settlement in Arizona has B.H. Wilhelm in Concho in March 1879) I says to myself, well the way he cut a pretty wide swath and got places and built things and ever' damn thing, he was pretty well off when he got here, but he wasn't when he left. He never left them one buck, and that's a pretty short time and he was gettin' a Justice of the Peace salary part of the time and he was gettin' captain of the guard part of the time. It was the only pay job in the whole bunch. He was a spendin' money. John: Well, we don't know how much he took with him when he went to Mexico. Roy: Well, he naturally would of taken some if he'd had it cause he's goin' out an . . . but I figured he was broke, figured he was, just gambled it all away. John: Could have. For instance after B.H. went to Mexico and was down there for awhile, when did he come back to the States? Roy: He, you see him and Grace split up while they was down there in Mexico and he was working mines, working in mines in Mexico and then he got workin' mines both sides of the border and Grandma, they sold her place, in Concho, after they got in the sheep business and made Vernon their headquarters, they is Pa and Haight. Aunt Fan, my dad's sister younger than him was married to Uncle Art, you remember Uncle Art? Well they lived down on the Gila river this side of Silver City. The old man in his workin' mines to mines, he got over to the copper and silver mines around Silver City. And then him and the old lady got back together, the one that he'd left here, they never did separate, he just didn't come back up here and so there they were, man and wife again. And he was divorced from what's her name or she divorced him. And he come back up here and they lived on the seven-bar-tee place, that big flat in the north west corner of Vernon valley. John: Is that the Dick Gibbons place? Roy: Yeah, they lived there, over against the hill, had a dugout. Dug into the hill and (what happened to her homestead in Vernon?) in front of it was just like a house a stickin' out of the hill. And after they lived there, well finally the boys advised him to go. Pa and Haight paid for the move and she went with him. He couldn't go to town and ever get back with any groceries or any money. He'd get on a hell roarin' drunk and finally they got tired of it and advised him that he was just throwin' a kink into everthin'. They'd foot the bill, pay his way, he'll take his wife and go on down and be close to his daughter there. John: Not that he'd be any more sober down there, but they wouldn't have to put up with it. Roy: Well, he just had 'em in a turmoil all the time, and there was nothin' they could do about it. So he went on back and they lived there and then Uncle Art picks up the story and tells me of the last night of the old man's life. He was layin' in bed, he had Bright's disease, and the doctor told him he was apt to go any time. And the folks who, and friends were down there, they'd gathered up around his bed there and they was a howlin' and everything. You know even drunkards has got people that loves 'im and he was tryin' to cheer 'em up, that the situation wasn't as bad as they thought. Just to prove it, he just got out of bed and give an old hoedown dance. Uncle Art said he was really clippin' 'er off. He was one of them that was there, he said for about four or five minutes he just really was a plowin' up the turf. He got tired, he just fell over on the bed and died. "Just thought you boys 'd want to know that," he said. John: Well, lets see there's other questions here. It says here, tell about Z. George meeting Nancy Naomi Gibbons Roy: Oh, Dick Gibbons was in the sheep business and he was in the cow business. He was one of the wealthy men of the county and he had gained control of the town of Malpais by then. And there was fifteen families workin' there and livin' there and they all worked for Dick. Malpai had at one time a post office and in The Post Offices of the West, it says that a man named Phipps was its first and only postmaster and it was only open for 9 months, when they fell below a certain point. I don't know what was the slump, but anyhow it operated for nine months. And they had a school, cause all these people had (kids), so they had a one teacher school and my mother she was a divorced widow she took the county exam and she wanted to go to work, got a job a teachin' school, but the Gibbons' wanted her to come out there because they had kids. They wanted somebody that was competent to teach 'em and then all the Mexican kids so she went out there and was teachin' school and my Dad he come by (ask about teaching school in St. Johns--do I remember a story about her teaching when Roy was a student in St. Johns?) and that was just a stoppin' place, ya know, and here's this good lookin' school teacher and he just hung up there for awhile and out of that visit there, I don't know how long afterwards, they were married. John: Well then after they got married they made their home in St. Johns didn't they? Roy: yeah. John: The place over there northwest of Pioneer school? Roy: yeah. The old man had, he was well fixed by then, he was Mr. Wilhelm and he bought a place already built there and then he spent some money fixin' it up. (Ed. Note: according to interview between Doug Singleton and Aunt Maude, George and Naomi lived in Vernon after they were married- first at Uncle Dick Gibbon's place then George homesteaded and built them a one room log house with a lumber lean-to. Then they built a lumber house on some land of Clarrissa Wilhelm's at Vernon. She mentions that they had to haul water from Uncle Haight's while they were living at George's homestead, probably why they moved to his mother's land -- Report from U.S. Dept. Agriculture in June 1908 states that claimant had a wife and three children living on homestead claim with him, Naomi, Maude, Andy and Roy. It also states that he lived on the land from 1900 to December 1907 and farmed land every year, built a house and dug three wells but could not get deep enough with the means at hand to secure water. During the entire time he had to haul water for domestic purposes. Report was signed 5/7/08. He would have homesteaded five years before his marriage to Naomi on Jan. 2, 1905.) John: Did your mother ever live at Vernon, on the ranch up there? Roy: Just in the summertimes. This is the same cabin that we lived in when we went up there to be with the old man after mother died. It was just a camp house. John: | + | |
| - | Well, is that the two story house that used to sit right there where . . . Roy: No we built that afterwards. John: You built that when you and the boys moved up there, huh? Roy: Yeah the two story house, yeah. That two story house was built adjoining that ranch cabin we had, just built up against that for part of one wall. John: Tell about the trips to California. Roy: Well my mother, I don't know, she had some ailment, but often women have an ailment that the Docs can't, just can't fathom it, that's the way she was. And she had kind of pains in her back or something and so, it was kind of like me takin' Mabel over to Rask see, people 'd been going out to California out to some doc that was out there, people looked at him as a, kind of a miracle worker. He was havin' great success and so Pa took her out there and the doc was alright and he fixed her up. John: So was it only one trip then, to California? Roy: Yeah, just one trip to California. But when they got out there it, her trouble was such that they decided to live out here and get her worked on, or they'd spend most of their time on the Santa Fe tracks goin' and comin'. So the old man just decided to, the snow was deep up here, and he gets aholt of Haight and he made a promise to kind of, pa 'd hired a couple of cowboys to be there at his place and he'd look after our cows while they, he'd oversee it, and so the old man, they stayed out there all winter, and it was a good thing it was a nice thing for my mother to, that's what they really, the wealthy, wealthy go out to California to stay for the winter and she got to stay out there for the winter. John: And of course you boys were just quite young then? Roy: Well they left us with Grandpa and Grandma and Pa got interested in out there. It was an old doc in Winslow, the guy that tried to take my, Doctor Oscar S. Brown, he was a Santa Fe doctor down there and he was, people went all over from everwhere to, cause he was a good doctor, good surgeon and so forth. When he started to take my tonsils out he cut into one of them and, boy, he liked to never got the blood stopped. I was a bleeder. Scared the hell out of him, thought he'd lost me there for awhile. I was just a little bit old kid. I just vainly relect that experience, but anyhow, he had the ranch, he's taken his railroad money here and invested it at lake Elsinore. And had some farms and California ranches, don't have to be very big to be a ranch out there. And so he had a string of well drills and the guys that he had runnin' 'em, that's kind of hard for him, he had to trust somebody where he was out here, he could just go back there once in a while. They were takin' him for a ride, shortin' the books and everything, so he wanted my Dad to come out there and run the well auger for him. Pa says, "I don't know a thing in this world about well drills." "Well," he says, "just see where you got them beat, I trust ya." And Pa thought about that. That meant that you can learn how on the job, I can stand your honest mistakes but I can't stand what these guys are doin' to me. So Pa spent a quite a bit of time out there at lake Elsinore, while they was there that winter, and he got interested and was goin' to buy a place there. He had to have a little, he needed $800 to sign the thing up and he didn't know just, he had that trip on his hands and he didn't want to run too low, they sold the steers once a year and he didn't want to run his finances too low. He thought his credit was good for $800 bucks. Anyway, Pa was what they considered one of the rich Apacheans and the banker turned him down on the grounds that Pa didn't know anything about that country out there and "those slickers are going to get to you and just for your own good I won't let you have it." I don't like a banker like that, do you? John: No. Roy: Well, Pa didn't like that one for the same reason. Changed banks but the deal fell through on that account, cause Pa was goin' to move out there and take that job, figure out somethin' to do with his cattle, maybe sell 'em. But that's right on the San Andreas fault and the lake, a beautiful lake and they had a big white hotel there for people to, it was built right on the edge of the lake, today it's down in the lake, there's a glass bottom boat you can buy a ride on and look down at the beautiful hotel in the bottom of the lake. Fault opened up, see, water run into the fault. The hotel just settled down slow proposition, water raised. Pa got interested in bees while he was out there. Doc Brown's boy, just a high school kid, got him a couple of hives of bees, then he got to sellin' honey, then he got to increasin' the bees. And he got to buyin' honey off of other people and got to be a dealer and he had a thousand gallon tank back of Doc's house right there in the mountains there. That was his honey stuff. He'd spin the honey out of those combs and pump it up there and he'd gallon it out. So Pa, he was goin' to try, the kid was encouragin' him to. There was plenty of flowers there and plenty of bees and he was going to try that and a lot of other stuff, run Doc's well drills. John: Well he raised some bees back here, didn't he? Roy: Yeah he never forgot it, the hell of it was he was a doin' bees up there at Vernon. The flowers are so scarce and the winters are so severe takes lots of honey to support a bee in cold weather. That's fuel that keeps 'em warm and there was very little left if you skim very much off from it, why you didn't have enough for the bees to winter on, they'd all die. Well, Pa had that whipped only he didn't have much honey left. Anyhow, things didn't work out. John: Did you tell us the story about Z. George and the Indians at the spring. Roy: Yeah John: We believe that was right shortly after they got here, huh 81 or somewhere? Roy: Yeah without a doubt he was a gettin' away from that Concho sheep, ya see the guys that owned the water hole owned the grass. And Concho being the center, all the big wigs, all but Sol Luna. Sol Luna was a pioneer attorney and a sheep man and a gambler and a gun man and ever' other damn thing. He got his clutches on Malpai and built big dippin' vats there and he had, when he'd drive 'em in the dippin' vat there, that summer they had just completed dippin' forty-thousand head. They'd run the sheep around and dip 'em as they come by from New Mexico. Well, that takes lots of grass and the Candelarias and the Ortegas and oh there's a whole slew of 'em there, Spaniards that married Mexicans and had their sheep. Well, they didn't mean to sell the Wilhelms a cattle right too, when they bought that place to build a town there, the Flake-Wilhelm deed. So he was reachin' out there to get some fresh feed up on the mountain. They took Jackson's lake, that was little Ortega lake. The Ortega boys built that lake so they'd have the bunch of grass there. Those that were down below like the Greers by the (Little) Colorado river, well they wasn't much they could do about it, only just claim it. The people that owned the water and those Mexicans had diverted the water at quite a bit of an expense to fill that Jackson lake out there and on over the hill there by the Y right off the mesa there is big Ortega lake, had a real big one there they diverted water into that a regular sump hole and so that's why the Wilhelms, they were good friends until the grass got to gettin' short, see so they was a reachin' out and gettin' grass that wasn't bein' used and that was over on the Apache land, nobody wanted to have headquarters over there. John: So any cabin he built there was most likely just a summer cabin or something? Roy: As I took it, it was just a, possibly a two room deal, cook shack with a bunkhouse. As far as I've ever known or listened to the old man tell the stories, it couldn't have been over, just what they lived there one summer. You fit that into the time frame that there was to do these things and it couldn't have been only just something one summer. But he was an ambitious old rat to do what he did do. And his profession, his being in the cattle business was accidental, but his profession was carpenter, he took training at that. John: That explains why the assessor on the tax rolls over there was taxing him on carpenter tools. Roy: Yeah. John: Well now, some of those carpenter tools that your Dad owned, that you inherited, suppose those belonged to B.H. originally? Roy: Maybe some of the older ones. John: Like that old jack plane? Roy: Yeah, I think that could have been the old mans. The full plane was about that long, I don't know if that was a figure 4 or whether it stood out in front the full plane and the jack plane was just only half that size. John: Oh, that one I've got up there then is a four plane, huh, that long one? Roy: Yeah, then I don't know what became of the jack plane..........................Roy: I remember when he bought that. (The draw knife) John: When was that? Roy: Oh when we was livin' in . . . .John: you mean when your dad bought it Roy: Yeah, when my Dad bought it. But he had had one, kind of a blacksmith made thing. You see, every guy in the team and wagon days, he carried an auger, twist drill, hand operated auger. They would drill a hole, say yea big, and he carried a plane and he carried a good sharp axe and went to town, we went to cross the Vernon creek up at 20 foot falls and he broke a double tree. Hell, that didn't stall him atall. He just went out beside the road where some of that second growth oak was, picked out a good one, chewed 'er down, you know you had to have a saw too and within forty-five minutes or an hour he had a damn good double tree. We was back on the road again. Had a draw knife, the old man always carried it in the jockey box. Along the front of the wagon box was a box about that deep and they were three and a half feet, about like that, cause that's how much a wagon box was, and it had this lid down. John: Were they 3 1/2 feet or were they 42 inches? Roy: I never since that argument, I never had any trouble a rememberin' 'bout how big a wagon box was. John: Who was it had that argument? Roy: Pa and Marion. Boy, they was right at each other's throats, you know. Both of 'em 'd measured and they knew. They got a tape and went out there to prove it. John: And both of them was right. Roy: And it hit them both at the same time and they just stood there a starin' at each other.
| + | '''Roy''': The first thing I can remember the [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Old Man]] telling about himself, he . . . (said) one of our relatives, [[Clarissa Harden|a woman]], married a guy named Terry, Uncle somebody Terry, ''(Ed. Note: story also told with Uncle George Draper giving [[Zemira George Wilhelm|George]] the knife)'' and Uncle Terry took a likin' to [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] and [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] was just a little kid, 4 years old and Terry would take him with him for company when he would go up the . . . he lived in [[Rockville, Utah|Rockville]] where the . . . close to where Zion's Park is and they'd go up the canyon there and cut trees. All the timber growing in the canyon, not up on the hill and he'd go with him and keep the old man company. The old man felt good about it, he gave [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] a little pocket knife, a little baby one with blades about that long and the folks didn't object, thought the boy ought to have a . . . he was just four years old, so he went to playing with the knife. He had it two or three days when he seen something and he was a runnin' to the house to tell his ma. He had the knife in one hand, but it was open, and he fell down and throwed his hand out to ketch 'im and that blade went right under his eyeball. He got up and turned loose of the knife but it didn't come out and went on to the house with this knife floppin' and he was crying and the blood was a squirtin' everthing and boy they got excited and they pulled the knife out. Word spread to the old ladies around and they all got together and kind of organized. Some of them did this and that, there wasn't any doctors--the one main thing that [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] remembered was they had to take good care of the knife, there was a part of them took care of him and the rest of them was a committee to take care of the knife. So they took it and then they left it open and they wrapped it in a greasy rag, got it all wrapped and then they put it behind the kitchen stove in a warm place to keep it comfortable. Didn't want to offend the knife. Well, [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] got a high fever, got infection and they thought they was going to lose him but after about ten days, he was a tough old guy, and lived through it and got alright. That knife went in one of these wrinkles below his eye so when it healed it didn't even show a scar. Nobody ever realized . . . it never affected his . . . it never cut any nerves or anything that was optic. He had as good a vision as anybody. Well, after [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] got out, then the committee with the knife, they got it and took it and buried it in a secret place on the back of the lot, rag and all. It had a great deal to do with the cure. |
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| | + | ==Pa and Indians== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': While they was livin' there at [[Rockville, Utah|that place]], why [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] kind of got interested in Indians. Well, they had an Indian that come by and he'd mooch 'em for something to eat. Brigham Young had put out this order it's cheaper to feed 'em than it is to fight 'em. So this old boy would be there every night at the back door and knockin' on the door and he wanted all he could eat and so they put a big bowl of bread and milk or whatever they had. Finally one time he showed up but he didn't come to get anything to eat; he’d worked for somebody and they'd paid him off with a bottle of wine. He got drunker than a skunk and he climbed up on a . . . Was ya ever at [[Rockville, Utah|Rockville]]? There's a bluff along one side, and these great big, old boulders, part of the bluff that hadn't weathered enough to fall plumb down, stickin' out away from the bluff . . . the highest of 'em about thirty feet high. Anyhow, this Indian was up on a big one that was on the back of their lot, and he was drunk and had a butcher knife and he was cursin' the Mormons. He'd take a shot of wine and then he'd wave the butcher knife, "Gonna kill all the Wormons!" [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] was scared to death and he had a fear of Indians from that time on. |
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| | + | ==Toquerville (Utah Dixie)== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': But they savvied that maybe they'd move to Toquerville . . . and there's where the Naegles lived; that's where he got acquainted with the Naegles. They called it Utah Dixie. That was the place where it really, really was Dixie; it was warm all the time. Somebody had traded the Wilhelms a bunch of guinea hens, and the guinea hens would just come along, just squat down and lay an egg wherever they . . . you could go look at the yard and here's eggs all over the yard. They never set on the eggs, but the eggs would lay there and it was such even temperature, that directly, why one of 'em would hatch. You had eggs and little guinea hens all over the place. [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] thought that was quite a thing. He always wanted to try guinea hens up around [[Vernon, Arizona|Vernon]] but he was 'fraid it was so cold they couldn't even live up there. That's where they got acquainted with the Naegles, not knowin' that part of the Naegle family and the Wilhelm family would be called to come out to [[Arizona]] later. |
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| | + | ==Orderville, Utah== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': I don't know whether they moved back to [[Orderville, Utah|Orderville]], or where they was when they got the call to go . . . I think they went back to [[Orderville, Utah|Orderville]] . . . the call to move to [[Arizona]] and so they struck out . . . Yeah, that's right! [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] was the first guy that put his stock into the Order, and when the Order began to break up, that's when he got called to pull his stuff out and leave . . . They were all farmin' around there, the Gibbonses, the Naegles and all of 'em, they were never satisfied. I don't know why. But those Orderville people were satisfied. [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] didn't know too much about the workings of the Order; he thought it was a big failure and a lot of other stuff. But it wasn't. I read a little thing about it, and then I got a hold of a copy of the [http://home.nwi.net/~enorwood/HistoryOfOrderville.PDF Kane County History] and it told about the Order, and it was very much a good thing. |
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| | + | ==Pa and Andrew Maxwell== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Well, on the way to Arizona, another family . . . was on a wagon train, comin' through and the Wilhelms signed on that same wagon train to come to Arizona. It was the Maxwell family. There was an Andrew Maxwell; he was nine years old, like [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] . . . they were best friends on that trip . . . travelled together, and when they was off helpin' drive cattle along the side, they teamed up and did it together and they was chums all the way. It took six weeks to make the trip, and when they came to the place where the road forked, and the Wilhelms was to take the Concho road, and the Maxwells was called to go to Round Valley, they stopped and cooked dinner and had a little friendly ceremony. [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] and Andrew Maxwell vowed that they would never lose track of each other; they'd stay in touch. So he lived up there and was raised there, [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa's]] folks went up to [[Vernon, Arizona|Vernon]], and it was sixty-two years, or something like that, before they met again. Andrew Maxwell got to be cattle inspector and he had some deal in connection with his job to go to Show Low so he took the trouble of comin' by the ranch. That's the funniest thing you ever seen, two old guys puzzlin' . . . over each other! They was still friends. Took a long time to get back together. |
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| | + | ==Concho, Arizona== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': When the Wilhelms got here, why they settled in [[Concho, Arizona|Concho]] and then the [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|old man]] was a rustlin' around, he'd driven quite a lot of cattle with him, he took part of his stuff in cash and part of it in cattle and drove the cattle alongside. So they was pretty well fixed when they come . . . and he was knocking around and discovered the wonderful grazing up on the mountains, just right for cattle so he took Goodman . . . Goodman's old millstead now . . . |
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| | + | '''John''': They already had a foot in Concho by then? ... |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, course he pulled the deal with old what's his name. Him and Flake bought the land, it was squatters right all around Concho. The Mexicans had no idea those guys could make a go of it. They just couldn't envision that they was going to move a lot of people in there and make a town, see. They was just goin' to get what they could off of 'em and never see 'em again. They didn't believe they could do anything. So [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] was in on that. [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] had used his homestead right up in Utah but he discovered this little cove up there, oh whats his name you been there . . . and it appealed to 'em and they wanted it, so [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma]]. I'm adding a lot here, details to make it clear. I don't have any Wilhelm stuff to back that up, I do have [[Erastus Snow Letter|a letter]] from two of the Apostles when the trouble come along, the polygamy. Wrote (the Apostles) to [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] and both of 'em signed it and advised him to take the [[Grace Tippett Jose|younger woman]] and go down on the border and get away from here so they couldn't pin polygamy on him. And let [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Lydia]] stay there and prove up on her homestead and that's where I get this, otherwise he would, made himself a homestead, well he . . . |
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| | + | ==White Mountain cattle camp== |
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| | + | '''John''': So when he went up to McKay Spring he wasn't eligible to homestead? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Well, no. |
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| | + | '''John''': What was he going to do with the cabin up there, just water his cattle? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Just squat. |
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| | + | '''John''': A place to run his cattle? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': A lot of guys did that, they just had a camp, a cow camp. |
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| | + | '''John''': And they didn't stay there very long, did they, before they had trouble with the Indians? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': The Indians run them out they never went back. When they moved up there for the summer, this was summer and winter in [[Concho, Arizona|Concho]], why [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Uncle Haight]], he was a big boy three years older than [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]]. [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa'd]] be at least ten by then if it took them a year to get settled in [[Concho, Arizona|Concho]], see. [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Uncle Haight]] be about thirteen or fourteen, so he'd go punching cows with the old man, I know that because I left home when I was thirteen and I went punching cows with the old man. So they went out one day gathering in the strays, they was keeping them from straying, they was cattle and they wanted to go back to [[Utah]] and they'd go anywhere to get away from where they were. They had to locate 'em, they called it. Just bringing 'em back all the time. This Indian bunch come along and it was [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma]] with all the little kids there about a 100 yards from the spring. The Indians they kept a jabberin' and making motions over at the house and everything and finally they put their warpaint on, that's what they always did when they exterminated a bunch of ranchers, they'd get their warpaint on. I don't know what part that had, it made it alright, I guess. Well, [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma]] knew they were in for a bad time but it was time for the kids to eat and they needed some water to drink and there wasn't any. She knew if she went out there and the Indians grabbed her, which they most likely would, the kids wouldn't have any water and they wouldn't have any mother either. So she had a long tom rifle ''(like an old Kentucky muzzle loader)'' there and she had it positioned there where she could put it out through the window or port hole. She told [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] and [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Aunt Fan]], the sister just younger than him, to take the bucket and go to the spring. The Indians was all around the spring, had possession of it, and get a bucket of water and no matter what they did stand right up to them, look them in the eye and tell them what they thought. The Indians didn't know English but they'd understand anyhow if they told 'em. So [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] was brave and he went and the Indians start messing with him and he just got all over 'em and they thought it was funny but they respected him see. But [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma]] was laying back there and what the Chief to that Indian bunch didn't know, she had a dead sight on him all the time. If they'd ever laid a hand on those kids, why she'd kill the chief first and according to Indian tradition if you killed the chief in a war party the rest of 'em'd run. Without leadership they just didn't know what to do. Well, the kids they played it tough, filled their bucket. And the Indians, they turned if off to kind of a jovial thing and bowed and scraped to 'em and let 'em go and bring the water on back. They kept lookin' at the cabin and jabberin' and finally they decided it was bad medicine and they got on their horses and headed on. Well it wasn't very long after that until a rider, perhaps the next day, the rider came by to tell them to get off the mountains that they . . . that the Indians had declared war on all white men. And they was going to kill the best one first, that 'd be old man Cooley. He'd married three or four Indian girls. |
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| | + | ==Malpai== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': So the Wilhelms loaded up and come to Malpai with their cattle. Now I don't know how come they got in at Malpai at that time. I feel sure that if we checked the dates why ol' Sol Luna still had it at that time. He was the big sheep man in the west and he used that as a dippin' place. Just run his sheep in from New Mexico round and round. Well, they got settled there and they ran the cattle the rest of that summer there. |
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| | + | ==B. H. Wilhelm, Captain of the Guard== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': The Indians got worse and finally the war was on for good and here come a runner and told them, "Come along in the evening and don't wait till morning. The order is to tell every rancher, everybody, to go to [[St. Johns, Arizona|St. Johns]]. No matter what religion you are or what color you are. Go to [[St. Johns, Arizona|St. Johns]] and bunch up there for safety." I guess Snowflake was another strong point. But that's where they had to go so [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] said they got them in the wagon and after that Indian experience up there, he was pretty Indian wise and scared and he was telling about when they'd drive them as fast as they could in the dark and he was lookin' out the covered wagon, they had to cover up bout that way so they could see out. Said he'd get to imagin' he could see Indians ridin' along with their bows and arrows, keepin' up with him on both sides and then he'd shake his head and it ud' come to him that it wasn't. It was just his imagination. He'd get fearin' to see if he could see 'em and he always told us guys if you peer hard enough you'll see what you're lookin' for. So they moved in [[St. Johns, Arizona|here]] and they had an election. They organized and there was all these different factions there. There was the Jewish merchants, the Mexicans, there was the outlaws that was outlaws and their counterparts, the guys that had been sent by the government as officials for the county, everything was appointed, see. There was them and anyhow, they were all at each other's throats, they didn't trust each other, see. But here comes [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|B.H. Wilhelm]] and they all liked him, he was kind of like Andy, he was a good mixer and a good drinker and they liked him and so they trust him and they all centered on him as the captain of the guard. And they put him on the payroll and he was the captain of the guard. And so he, I don't know how long he was here, 2 years anyway I guess, as captain of the guard. ''(Ed. Note: This was '''The United Forces of St. Johns''', formed [[September 5]], [[1881]]) '' |
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| | + | '''John''': While keeping the place in [[Concho, Arizona|Concho]]? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': They undoubtedly went to the place in [[Concho, Arizona|Concho]] and worked some and done something and then moved over there after it quieted down, how long he was on that salary I don't know, but while he was here he did a good deal of gambling with the guys, knew all the, he was friend to everybody and he was the big man in the militia. |
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| | + | ==Feeding the prisoners== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': The sheriff had a guy in jail. Did you ever see that old jail was over there? Well, it was in that and (they) had a guy in there, he was a crazy guy, a guy named Aaron Adair. He was a real nut, he was violent and they chained him like a bear. Chained him up in there and along with all else, why the Wilhelms had the contract of feeding the prisoners when there was prisoners. So the [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|old man]] he was off on his daily duties but they appointed, I guess [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight]] had something else to do and my [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Dad]], it fell his chore to go and carry the food over there to the prisoners. They made him a mark, see, for as far as that chain come, so (if) he didn't go inside that, old thing couldn't get im'. And he said old Aaron Adair'd just plead with him to come over and visit with him. [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] was too wise. When he was through eatin' why Adair would come and push the things over the line. [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa'd]] get a broom and rake 'em back. |
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| | + | ==Selling cards== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Then another chore, another thing that he had, they had (a) poker game, all night poker game, every night. The guys didn't trust each other, if one man was a winnin' too much and they couldn't catch him he was slick. If they'd a caught him there'd a been a shooting. But if they couldn't catch him why they'd just, some guy when it come his turn to deal, he'd just take the deck they was playing with and take part of the cards out of the deck anyway, ya know and rip 'em in two and just throw 'em out on the floor, order a new deck and they'd start playing with a new deck. And that happened four or five times a night, that some guy that was a havin' hard luck would tear up part of the deck. But the cards were all just alike. They were all bicycle cards except the ones that had been tore up, see, and they're on the floor. Well, [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] got [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] a job a sweepin' out the pool hall, the gamblin' place there, kind of straightenin' things up, so he took an interest in cards and he, that's one thing, the [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|old man]] always played cards and believed in that part of it, 'cause it was part of his boyhood, see and he would gather those cards up and pick out the clean ones that wasn't get messed up, guys spittin' tobacco on 'em or something and he would make up decks and trade these decks around town. Make whole decks out of (them), he run quite a little trade there doing that and made himself a little money, and... ''(Ed. Note: end of tape side one)'' |
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| | + | ==House in Concho== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': All the time there, [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa's]] interest in Concho was more and more and this homestead of [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Lydia's]], they had to get on it and stay on it or they'd lose it. They built one of the best houses in the country. [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] was a carpenter by trade and he was good workman, I guess. And he built that house that was going to be the old ancestral home and they built a big house. And [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma]] was an exceptional cook, somehow the Wilhelms always was kind of particular about how the way their stuff tasted. And when the church authorities would come through and they'd come over to Snowflake and then they wanted to come on to St. Johns, they'd always time it so they could stay with the Wilhelms in Concho. Well, it was quite an honor but it was expensive and worked out both ways, everybody was satisfied. And [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa'd]] planted a big orchard there, several orchards and improved their place and everything, but then come the polygamy stuff. And these, the Apostles, they had four or five of 'em all the time down here ridin' herd on these people and they had to advise them. And so the Church members did what they asked 'em to, so they advised [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]], in [[Erastus Snow Letter|that letter]], to get the younger woman and go down, to follow the mountains down into Old Mexico and leave Lydia to prove up on her homestead. |
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| | + | '''John''': Let me ask you a question about that homestead. Didn't they buy squatters rights from the original settlers? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': That was on all the land, where they had the squatters rights but this was outside of that purchase. He found this little glade and they just homesteaded it extra. Flake wasn't in on it, see. |
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| | + | '''John''': So [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma]] had filed homestead on it under her name since he'd already used his homestead rights in Utah. |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, that's how come. |
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| | + | ==B.H. Wilhelm, Gambling man== |
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| | + | '''Roy''': So, I'm a kind of a detective, maybe it isn't a good thing to be a detective when you're playin' around with your ancestors but here grandpa had orders to go down there and he had orders to take a family on the road with him and you just can't thumb your way. You gotta have something to eat and they were already established there in Concho, so it was one of two things they had a little money and he took the money and left two boys there, teenage boys, to make a living for their mother and the family. And here the detective part comes in. He come to the country in 1881 ''(Ed. Note: Bateman actually arrived in Concho in 1878)''. That's when they first took up that place in Concho and it was in '84, probably the last part of '84, that he got [[Erastus Snow Letter|this letter]], it's dated there, to leave. That's not many years. He got paid off a hundred to one when he left the Order up there and he was broke when he left to go down over the mountains, would indicate to me he was a damn poor poker player. But anyhow, be that as it may, you can include that in your writings if you want to but it is, a little gambling, is a long time trait in both families that cropped up from now and then, we got it from the Harris family on the other side too. All because Uncle David Aldridge got lucky in San Bernardino one time. He married a Harris, incidentally, Uncle Bill's sister. He got lucky and won, oh almost a hundred-thousand dollars in a poker game. Two big bags of gold. It was all he could do to load 'em on a horse and course he didn't figure that he'd ever get where he was going with those. The poker game broke up just after daylight see, between daylight and sunup and those other guys didn't figure he'd get to goin' where he was goin'. But he had two what they called horse pistols, big long barreled pistols and he had them already on his saddle loaded full blast. And they didn't know about that and when he went aboard he got out in the middle of the street and he hit a run with the horse, see and he would have really fogged anything up that moved on the side but he made it, made it to where he had backin'. And anyhow, on account of that game why he was always considered a very smart man by the Harris family and quite a few of 'em done a little poker playin' on account of it. |
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| | + | '''John''': Now his name being Aldridge, was he any relation to John Harris' wife, whose maiden name was Aldridge? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, that's right. Harris also married an Aldridge. See what I mean? |
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| | + | '''John''': Yeah, John Harris married an Aldridge. Some relative of hers married another Harris? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Some double cousins there somewhere. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, then there was a bad thing happened there. There was some of John Harris' kids, er yeah cousins, married some of the other family, see some of the Aldridges that were cousins, first cousins marrying first cousins and it didn't pay off. There was some kind of bad family traits that they got magnified in that deal, which happens a lot where people get to intermarrying and it just doesn't work out. Well, they had mental troubles these descendants of Uncle David's and they it just wasn't right. Some of them I guess had to be . . . uh put in . . . |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': They were committed. prisioners |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, committed, yeah. And that's where that old saying comes from, "we are committed." Now, let me see I've brought ya . . . |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': him being a poor poker player, when he left for Mexico he was broke. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': It just adds up. That's not very long, that's not very many years and he was drawing a salary over there, he was drawing a salary here in St. Johns for being captain of the guard along with the rest, my detective mind just got busy on it and matched all these things up. |
| | + | |
| | + | ==B.H. Wilhelm, Drinking man== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Didn't rumor have it that the old man had a drinking problem? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Oh, yeah, he did. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Spent some of the money that way, no doubt. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yea Well I didn't know very much about him after he got down there until I got ahold of a book that his boy wrote, no his grandson wrote, and the old man went plumb off the deep end down there drinkin' and he got so he'd come home and kind of rough his wife up and [[Marion Lee Williams|Marion]] didn't like that, he was the same age as [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]], only a half-brother, see. According to [http://www.amazon.com/Let-The-Tail-With-Hide/dp/1588320227 that book that Ben wrote,] Benjamin Franklin, his son wrote, the old man come home and started to roughing his mother up and the kid come in and seen him and just reached out the door where they had a single tree leanin' up there, about that long and they were about that big around, made out of hickory. It was a perfect club and he laid 'er up there across the old man there, I guess he tried to kill him, but he knocked the old man just colder than a wedge and then he knew he was through around there, there was no use both of them trying to live under the same roof, so he shoved off and went down into Old Mexico and went to work at a mining, for a mining engineer down there. The mining engineer kind of took over an tutored him along and made a whole new story of its own. Well, Grandpa went on over to Silver City following the mines. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Do we know how long he was in Mexico before he went over there? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': I don't have an idea. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': A few years, anyway? |
| | + | |
| | + | ''(Ed. Note: Apparently Bateman went back and patched things up with Lydia at some point, as both her and [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Fan]] were with him in New Mexico according to the 1900 US Census.)'' |
| | + | |
| | + | ==B.H. Wilhelm's deathbed jig== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, he spent a lot more time down there than he ever spent here around Apache County before he went over there. And finally he got Bright's disease something to do with his drinkin', they say. Bright's disease so they say the kidneys begin to crystallize and turn to salt. That's all I know. The doctors 'ud probably dispute that but, handed down to me that's what's called Bright's Disease. It was a killer. You only had so long to live. Finally when he was on his death bed, they was all gathered up and they expected him to go any time and he was kind of, tried to lighten the situation, thought they could use their time better if it was their last visit, to kind of cheer each other up a little. So he jumped out on his bed, danced a good jig for 'em, really hoed 'er down, fell down on the bed and died. That's what Uncle Art said, he was an eye witness. Well, they buried 'im. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Well, if Uncle Art was there and he was already in the family this was quite a few years later. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, he'd married the [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|little girl]] that went with pa out to get water when the Apaches was up there. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': She's younger than your dad was, |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Just younger than my dad. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': So several years had elapsed? |
| | + | |
| | + | ==B.H. Wilhelm grave flood== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, and so the old man died and they buried him there in the Silver City graveyard and then there come a hell of a flood and it washed out eight graves. And the old man's was one of 'em and they never found one trace of him or his coffin or any sign any where and they had an organized search of the whole flood course all the way to the Rio Grande 'cause the Rio Grande was on a big flood too and after that there was no use lookin'. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Did they recover any of the eight persons that were washed away? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': I don't know about the others but Uncle Art said they never, they just couldn't find not one little scrap of anything that you could say this is part of . . . probably the others the same. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Well, if that had been buried there for quite some time it probably made a pretty good raft, huh? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, he might have gone to sea. There have been several instances where a coffin has been washed out, see, out of a graveyard and dumped into the sea and it makes a sea voyage. It's a perfect thing... |
| | + | |
| | + | ''(Ed. Note: Research has indicated that the flood or floods that washed out the Silver City grave yard actually occurred before Bateman died, and at a different location than the current cemetery.)'' |
| | + | |
| | + | ==Lydia and family in Concho== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well, now we come back to Concho. For awhile [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight]] was makin' a living for them, for the family. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': How many younger brothers and sisters were there, or no other brothers just sisters? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': There was another brother, [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John]]. He was young, he was just a toddler and [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Aunt Fan]] was I don't know, yeah [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Aunt Fan]] was there with them 'cause she wouldn't have gone with the [[Grace Tippett Jose|other woman]], see and [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]], she was younger than [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Fan]], ''(Ed. Note: Actually, Fan is younger)'' she was there and there was those two girls and [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John]], guess that's it. And [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]]. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': 5 kids? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': 5 kids. ''(Ed. Note: Six in total - [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight]], [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]], [[Clarissa Isabell Wilhelm|Clara]], [[Zemira George Wilhelm|George]], [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Fan]], and [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John]].)'' |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well, they had a hell of a time, first the Mexicans, they tried to starve them out, then they got to feelin' sorry for them and gave them a little work, see, but they just damn near starved to death but they had the best damn place in the whole country there. Some things you can't raise and when your clothes wears out, it's hard to produce them on a farm. |
| | + | |
| | + | ==Shearing Sheep with the Greer boys== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': They had the Greer boys, about the only friends they had but they didn't, they might as well, probably been better off without 'um sometimes and Pa was a tellin' about when Cleveland's time, it was a great depression before the turn of the century, when Grover Cleveland was in and he was elected on a certain thing that he guaranteed to do and everybody told him, says, it'll throw the country into a panic but he didn't think so but he kept his word and for 4 years they had "Cleveland's time" and there was just no money, it just went out of circulation and that was it. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': There was for 2 years there wasn't even a cattle buyer at any price for the steers that was raised in this country and the sheep men could sell a little wool on account of the government used it for uniforms for the soldiers, but the meat they couldn't sell. Well, they had to shear those sheep and it was a nasty job and somehow they got started off they had to pay for that and they only guys that had any money was the sheepmen and they had to pay for the shearing and everybody wanted to shear sheep for them, even the Greer boys. Pa and Haight, they got a job shearing sheep and so did the Greer boys. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Pa says they was a shearin' away there and the Greer boys was down there really getting with it and oh they hated it. They were the ones that would hold their nose when they rode up to the camp to visit with Pa and Haight 'cause they were sheep men, see, hold their nose all the time they visited, they couldn't stand the smell here they are down in the bottom a shearin' sheep so these two old big fat Mexicans got up there and oh, you never seen a dandy till you've seen those old Mexican sheep men, dressed up you know, they always wore suits, tailor made suits, see and they was on a, put on a new one and here they'd go a chain here with an elks tooth hangin' on it, it fastened on one side and there was a watch pocket over here and they could look at the time, lot of crap like that. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well they got positioned up there and they each lit a cigar and they pretended that they didn't know the Greer boys was there and one of 'em says "they tell me the Greer boys do not like sheep, I wonder why they don't like sheep?" the other one said, "That is a false statement my friend, the Greer boys like sheep, look at them. They are hugging them! They love them!" Pa said if those Greers'd of had a pistol they'd a killed those two Mexicans, he knew damn well. There was nothing they could do about it, they had to have that money and they put up with that kind of insults. Better not play that tape to the Greers, it won't be too popular. That ain't part of their script at all. |
| | + | |
| | + | ==Pa and Haight get into the sheep business== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well, finally there was one old man over there, an old Mexican man, come to [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] and [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight]] and says, "Why don't you boys go into the sheep business, that's where the money is, if you have stock, why you're all right. Unless you can cash in on your share of this grass, you just as well give it up. Well, they couldn't go into the sheep business, they couldn't even pay taxes, He says, "I'll tell you what, now these old sheep are doomed to die, maybe she's pregnant, and in the spring she would have just as good a lamb as any other sheep but she won't live. She won't have teeth; she can't keep up, she'll die. So every sheep man knows 'em they can go through and they can tell you just which ones won't. He says, "I'll let you have all that are in my herd for a dollar apiece, and pay for it when you can, I won't get nothing otherwise. When you can! Someday; years! And I'll spread the word to the others and some of 'em 'll take it up." And some of um did. And said, "You boys have raised all this feed." They were working son of a guns, but they'd raised this feed cause they had nothing else to do and then nothing to feed it to, see, and that's what they did. They bought those sheep on time, dollar a head. They went in the sheep business that way. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': After a few years, [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] said it never dawned on him until suddenly, he was a riding along and he had a new [[:file:Zemira George Wilhelm's saddle.jpg|saddle]] and a new fat horse and following two herds of sheep to the mountains, check book in his pocket, he still thought he was poor. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Were they still teenagers when that happened or just young men? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, They were teenagers when that happened on account of Haight was supposed to get married and eventually Pa. |
| | + | |
| | + | ==How the "Concho Curse" lead to Homesteading at Vernon== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Wonder at what point in time did they decide to go homestead up at Vernon? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well, that comes along with what is known as the "Concho curse." The people in Concho, the Mormons that, they put the names in a hat, see, they put the description of land, see, so many acres when they got all their people that wanted to settle there. They had these plots surveyed and numbered they put 'em in and a man comes up and pays his money and draws out of there it's up to him what he got and over to Concho there was part of that land that was sandy loam where the sand had washed down over this clay and mixed in with it until it wasn't clay soil anymore but it was had enough clay in it that to hold the moisture and nutrients and it was good. Good land and bad land. The bad land, when it rained you couldn't even walk across it cause you got about that much mud on each foot, that old sticky mud. Well, those guys had a hell of a time getting their seed back, but the guys with the good land, man, Concho was all right. It was the garden spot of Arizona, they called it. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well these people that had the bad land, they concocted a scheme. Why not take the water that they impounded there in the Concho Reservoir and ditch it down the stream course? Down to the Hunt valley, where it was all good land, down where Doc Ellsworth was and then they could all have good land. But these other guys cited 'em to the fact that the evaporation on that much ditch, the evaporation and sinkage would lower the stream 'til none of them would have anything when it got down there. Well they hung on that point. They even got to where they were takin' their guns to church with them. All belonged to the same church, see. Then they got to where they wouldn't go to church at all and it was just a bad situation. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': So they sent one of the apostles to straighten it out, so he would talk to one faction and the other faction and the other faction trying to get 'em something, a little common ground. And they couldn't, the longer he was there the worse it got. Finally he decided that it was a lost cause and there was just nothing could be done about it, cause these people wasn't gonna budge. Anything was said about it, crystalized it more than ever. So he advertised that he had the solution to the whole thing and to come and have one big meeting. And he beat the bushes until they all got out to see what he had to say. And he told 'em that the situation was beyond human power to resolve it and that he had the authority to release them from their call as colonizers. And he says, "I release you from your call. You're free to go where you want to. Concho is no more as far as the church is concerned. I release you with this prophecy: That Concho will wither and die like a melon on a dead vine." Which it has. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': And this was all found in Church records? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, and I had to go to Church records to finally find out what the war was over, why they got so bad. Then I found it in church records, course that's part of that detective work. I just matched it up with when they, the dates coincided, so I decided that's what split 'em up, see and here we have the Apostle they, disbanded. People began to move out they didn't hold church there anymore, well, there was a bishop, always, right down 'til way in the thirties. But then the old sheep men, it wasn't as good like it used to be. You know you can't overstock the range forever and we've seen that and then another thing, some s.o.b. come in here with a well auger, that was the Cowleys. A well drill. Now it used to be the people that owned the Malpais out there and Blood tanks and the big Ortega lake and the spring at Floy. If you had a water hole you controlled the range. It was just like havin' a deed to it, all around it for as far as a cow can walk and back in a day. That's how much you had if you had a water hole. So here comes the well auger and any old cowboy that got a few hundred dollars, found a good location and he had him a good spring. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': That wasn't these Cowleys that are here now, that was their father probably? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, old man Graham Cowley. These guys just carried on the business. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Well, is that about when your [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Dad]] and [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Uncle Haight]] decided to go [[Wilhelm Homesteads in Vernon, Arizona|homestead at Vernon]]? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, when this breakup come. It was all over there for them. Their friends, the people they were raised with, they were all movin' out. They were on the range see, and they had learned to, incidentally, [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Grandpa]] still had a remnant of his cows and when he got out of this here "captain of the guards," he'd lost his squatters right up at Valle Bonito, the old Goodman set, so he made a deal with the Mexicans at Mineral. Rented a house and moved his cattle up there, that was his headquarters. Well, while they were there and Haight and Grandpa was still riding herd on this big bunch of cattle, the Mexicans had raised down in the Scott place, that meadow down there, they'd raised a barley patch, a big barley field and they didn't have the way of gatherin' it that we have nowadays and time they got through mowin' and gatherin' up there was about, well, just too much of this crop still down there but it was just goin' to waste so anybody was welcome to go pick it up by hand and my Dad found out that it was worth five dollars a hundred pounds and that he could thresh it by hand, gather it up by hand and thresh the stuff by hand and eventually git him five dollars, so he did that. Well that's quite a chore for a little kid to do that, see. He wanted the money, he'd seen a pair of boots down to St. Johns or Concho in a store and that's what he was aimin' at. Those boots were five dollars, red boots, red leather boots. So when he got it done he says to his Dad when he went for supplies, he says, "I saved this up, a hundred pounds here and I want those boots. Will you sell this barley for me and bring back the boots?" And Grandpa told him yes, throwed the sack in and never said anymore about it. Pa never heard of the boots anymore and there was a gap between him and his Dad like there was between me and Pa, see, so they didn't talk things over, see, and Pa held that against his Dad till the day he died. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Never did quiz him about it, just held a grudge? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Never did quiz him about it. Maybe the old man accidently forgot it, as drunk as he was when he got back, forget a lot of things. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': When they had the breakup at Concho they decided to homestead in Vernon? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Right. Now the Wilhelms are capable people, but they got two things they got to watch. Don't get started with his beak in a whiskey flask and don't get to gamblin'. I whipped gambling not by quittin' it, I whipped it by outfigurin' 'em. I did it scientifically and I won a little money, but it's not good. The deal with gambling, you don't get there from calmly, coolly and collectively out playin' the other guy, unh-uh, it's that old throwin' your money in and takin' that long chance. That's gamblin'. That's the thing that gits ya. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Now when they went up and homesteaded at Vernon how long was it before your Grandma moved up there? She sold out at Concho didn't she, to move up there? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, she sold out at Concho and she took up a homestead. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': That's when Candelarias bought that place from her right? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': I don't, I never, I'm sure that Roman's got the papers on it. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': I was just thinkin' I heard that somewhere. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, well, that's logically, that's right. Roman didn't buy it, some other guy bought it and Roman bought it from a second there was two or three owners there. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Oh, ok. When Grandma went to Vernon was that a homestead or did she just buy that with the proceeds of her Concho sale? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': No, she put up a homestead, see. Time they got up there, [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John Wilhelm]] was old enough that he was married and had a little bunch of cattle and he homesteaded. ''(Ed. note: In Gloria Andrus' book she states that John and his wife Luella homesteaded in Vernon in 1907)'' Ya had [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight's]] homestead and [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa's]] homestead, side by side. And [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John's]] was on the west of [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight's]] where the west side of Vernon is on [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight's]] homestead, just a quarter of a mile strip there was Haight's and [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John's]] bordered onto that thing there toward the knoll and [[Lydia Hannah Draper|Grandma's]] was over in the flat there west of [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John's]] and that's the way it was. ''(Ed. note: If B.H. could not homestead twice, why could his wife?)'' |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Now how come was it that your Dad had a house over on Grandma's place the same time he was maintaining that homestead? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well he built that house there because she was an old lady and she got old and needed somebody close to her so he built this log house on her homestead, she already lived there, so he could live there and be close to her, chop wood for her, etcetera. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': That one Forest Service document that I got said something about he was having trouble getting a reliable water source on his homestead, so he was staying off the site. Maybe that had something to do with it too. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well yeah. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Till he could get him a well. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': That was a convenient thing. He had dug a couple of wells and they were dry. He was diggin' farther out in the flat, see and the farther out in the flat you get the deeper the water is, it's just as good a water but it's deep. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Out in a cinder cone. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, that's right. |
| | + | |
| | + | ==Pa's siblings== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Well now, we've talked about [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John]], he married somebody and I read about him and his troubles in a Rothlisberger book, he must have married a Rothlisberger. ''(Ed. Note: He married Luella Hall June 25, 1906. After John's death on June 9, 1911, she married a Rothlisberger.) '' |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, he did. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': But what about the two sisters, [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]] and [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Fan]], what do you know about their . . . ? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]] went down to, now wait, there was a girl that married a Rogers fellow and he went up with this homestead drive and he homesteaded "John Dutch's" place, John Rothlisberger's place and then he moved off and turned his equity over to John and John homesteaded. It happened all the time. You'd buy a homesteader out; buy his squattin' rights, get him out and you'd file on it, see. Now what was her name, oh that's [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]]. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]] was the one that married the Rogers? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah and he went down to over the mountains. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Down to Mexico? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, I guess through, see they were one family and he was corresponding with this other family, [[Marion Lee Williams|Marion's]] family, down there, that was the attraction. Went down there to work in the mines or something, he went down there and that's why we've got that Rogers bunch down there now. We have relatives down there, the Rogers. However, can't think of his name, the main one of them, he died and he had kids. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': By the main one you're not talking about the one that married your [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Aunt Zora]]? You're talking about somebody later than him? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, his posterity. And then another girl went down, I can't think of her name, she was the baby of the bunch, to live with them. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': So there must have been six kids left in Concho? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': When [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|B.H.]] headed out. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, and she married a guy named Gibbs, a policeman down there. I remember when the Gibbs family come up here a visitin' us and we played with, there was Bert Gibbs, a little guy and can't think of the girls' names, two of them. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Those were your first cousins? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, first cousins. They're down there somewhere or their posterity. Soon lose a family. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Yeah, that's why I wanted to get some of these names, you're the only one that remembers this stuff. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Now you take [[Benjamin Franklin Williams, Jr.|Ben F. Williams]]. He was the mayor, [[Benjamin Franklin Williams|his dad]] was before him. And he was the mayor of Douglas and I corresponded with him, I made him a present of the History and he, what was I going to tell you about him, anyway he's a nice guy. Oh, he's in, oh what I was going to tell you about him, he's in genealogy, he's not a religious guy but he's got this thing about genealogy and he sent me a whole bundle, we'll get it and dig into it . . . |
| | + | |
| | + | ==Johannes Katronnes Wilhelm== |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Tell me what you know, family lore wise, about the Wilhelm line. We only started at Rockville. How did they come to be in Rockville in the first place? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Oh you mean to go back to [[Clarissa Harden|Grandma Clarrissa]], huh? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Yeah, go back as far as you remember, as far as you know anything about. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well, the furthest I know is tradition about this old man, now it was handed down that his name was [[Johannes Katronnes Wilhelm|Johannes Katronnes]], but I don't think there was ever such a man. I think he was trying to be funny, for his grandkids, making up a name for himself see because [[John Andrew Williams (Johann Andreas Wilhelm)|John A. Wilhelm]] is the old man that's buried back there. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Back in New York? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, and the descendents claim him as, you know the other descendents, not ours that come west, that that's the old man. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': So do you suppose he's the one that deserted the Prussian army and swam the Rhine river and all that, hitchhiked across the Atlantic? |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Well he might have been, kind of color up his stories. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Yeah, some of that may have been entertainment value. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah that's right because some of the things that they've handed down an it's leaked to me around by other people, like some guy named Carroll up there, that's . . . |
| | + | |
| | + | '''John''': Paul Wayne Carroll. |
| | + | |
| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah and people like that, they don't have this swimmin' the Rhine river. But the hell of it is, the old man, the tradition come down through our family said that he had a knapsack full of bread, he'd saved it so he'd have stuff to eat when he deserted and a razor, a big razor. And I didn't see the razor, somebody stole it from the ranch up there before I was big enough to know there was a razor. My dad said the blade on that razor was that long, ''(Ed. Note: Roy indicated about ten inches)'' just a giant thing, and the old man swam the Rhine river with that. |
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| | + | '''John''': Which your [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Dad]] had and he got it from his [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Dad]], along with the story. |
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| | + | '''Roy''': That's right. But the rest of them, they didn't get it that he swam the Rhine and was a deserter. He worked his way over on a freighter. Maybe if he was on the docks when the German army, I don't suppose he'd wear a sign around on his back saying, "I'm the old boy that deserted the army and swam the Rhine river with a razor and a knapsack full of bread and I've got me a job now and I'm goin' to the States." |
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| | + | ==The Williams family in New York, and across the plains== |
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| | + | '''John''': Now is there a generation between [[John Andrew Williams (Johann Andreas Wilhelm)|John A. Wilhelm]] and [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|B.H.]]? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, oh yeah [[John Benjamin Williams|John Benjamin]] was [[John Andrew Williams (Johann Andreas Wilhelm)|John A's]] (son) or whoever that old man's name was. He probably got two or three names. In fact look at the Wilhelms now, we don't know whether we're Wilhelms or Williams. We've kicked it back and forth playin' ping pong with the name. But he probably did that, being a deserter, he probably had two or three titles that he swung back and forth. That's what fouls it up. |
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| | + | '''John''': [[John Benjamin Williams|John Benjamin's]] the one that pulled up stakes when they was fighting over the old mans estate? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': That's right. He's the one that pulled out he's the one that died and buried. [[Clarissa Harden|Clarissa]], old grandma Clarissa, got the black eyebrows like I got and like [[Carl Andrew Wilhelm|Andy's]] got, your boy. And he joined the church. |
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| | + | '''John''': After he'd already drug up from New York and headed west, is when he ran into the church or was he already a member back there when he split? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Well their first move was to the west New York. I think that's where they joined the church. But he got tuberculosis, I guess, at the Mississippi river. He intended to go across the plains but he was too sick to make it. So she drifted on down to where they had been down in Missouri where the mobs had run them out but she didn't tell them she was Mormon. You've read her [[Autobiography of Clarissa Wilhelm|letter]] haven't you? |
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| | + | '''John''': I was going to say, we have [[Autobiography of Clarissa Wilhelm|an account]] of hers don't we, for a lot of that history? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Well that's the guy; she buried him there, plus three kids and just had the two boys left. ''(Ed. Note: According to genealogy records, James Return, Susan Clarissa, Bateman Haight and Ellen Albinia were alive when they left Missouri; also, [[Autobiography of Clarissa Wilhelm|Clarissa's Autobiography]] confirms only two children died in Missouri)'' And then this Holliday, this wagon master, was lookin' for a good cook. And she was a good cook and so she signed on to cook for him and his out riders for passage for her and the two boys. |
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| | + | '''John''': And who were the two boys? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|Haight]] and [[James Return Williams|James]]. |
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| | + | '''John''': [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|B.H.]], the same old [[[[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|B.H]]. that we were talking about earlier? |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, the one that got hit on the head with the single tree. [[James Return Williams|James]] went back for a visit. |
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| | + | '''John''': Oh he's the one she never heard from again; never knew what happened to him. |
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| | + | '''Roy''': Never knew what happened to him. And that damn singer back there, Andy Williams. Williams fits right in there, looks enough like, did up to a certain point, like [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Uncle Haight's]] kids did when they were young, twenty year olds. I don't know, if I knew how to go about it I'd try and see. I figure that what he did he just told her he was workin' to get a little more grub stake to come on out. He probably fell for some girl and she was anti-Mormon and he just washed his hands of the whole thing and stayed there. Went back to, well they were already Williams. They were Williams when they went there. They went back to Wilhelm when they come down here to Arizona. The church told them, on account of genealogical things, to take it back. Then they told the [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|old man]] when he went on to Mexico, better swing back. So it was Williams down there. |
