Interview with Roy Wilhelm, December 24, 1992
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==B. H. Wilhelm, Captain of the Guard== | ==B. H. Wilhelm, Captain of the Guard== | ||
| - | '''Roy''': The Indians got worse and finally the war was on for good and here come a runner and told them, "Come along in the evening and don't wait till morning. The order is to tell every rancher, everybody, to go to St. Johns. No matter what religion you are or what color you are. Go to St. Johns and bunch up there for safety." I guess Snowflake was another strong point. But that's where they had to go so Pa said they got them in the wagon and after that Indian experience up there, he was pretty Indian wise and scared and he was telling about when they'd drive them as fast as they could in the dark and he was lookin' out the covered wagon, they had to cover up bout that way so they could see out. Said he'd get to imagin' he could see Indians ridin' along with their bows and arrows, keepin' up with him on both sides and then he'd shake his head and it ud' come to him that it wasn't. It was just his imagination. He'd get fearin' to see if he could see 'em and he always told us guys if you peer hard enough you'll see what you're lookin' for. So they moved in | + | '''Roy''': The Indians got worse and finally the war was on for good and here come a runner and told them, "Come along in the evening and don't wait till morning. The order is to tell every rancher, everybody, to go to [[St. Johns, Arizona|St. Johns]]. No matter what religion you are or what color you are. Go to [[St. Johns, Arizona|St. Johns]] and bunch up there for safety." I guess Snowflake was another strong point. But that's where they had to go so [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]] said they got them in the wagon and after that Indian experience up there, he was pretty Indian wise and scared and he was telling about when they'd drive them as fast as they could in the dark and he was lookin' out the covered wagon, they had to cover up bout that way so they could see out. Said he'd get to imagin' he could see Indians ridin' along with their bows and arrows, keepin' up with him on both sides and then he'd shake his head and it ud' come to him that it wasn't. It was just his imagination. He'd get fearin' to see if he could see 'em and he always told us guys if you peer hard enough you'll see what you're lookin' for. So they moved in [[St. Johns, Arizona|here]] and they had an election. They organized and there was all these different factions there. There was the Jewish merchants, the Mexicans, there was the outlaws that was outlaws and their counterparts, the guys that had been sent by the government as officials for the county, everything was appointed, see. There was them and anyhow, they were all at each other's throats, they didn't trust each other, see. But here comes [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm|B.H. Wilhelm]] and they all liked him, he was kind of like Andy, he was a good mixer and a good drinker and they liked him and so they trust him and they all centered on him as the captain of the guard. And they put him on the payroll and he was the captain of the guard. And so he, I don't know how long he was here, 2 years anyway I guess, as captain of the guard. ''(Ed. Note: This was '''The United Forces of St. Johns''', formed [[September 5]], [[1881]]) '' |
'''John''': While keeping the place in Concho? | '''John''': While keeping the place in Concho? | ||
'''Roy''': They undoubtedly went to the place in Concho and worked some and done something and then moved over there after it quieted down, how long he was on that salary I don't know, but while he was here he did a good deal of gambling with the guys, knew all the, he was friend to everybody and he was the big man in the militia. | '''Roy''': They undoubtedly went to the place in Concho and worked some and done something and then moved over there after it quieted down, how long he was on that salary I don't know, but while he was here he did a good deal of gambling with the guys, knew all the, he was friend to everybody and he was the big man in the militia. | ||
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| + | ==Feeding the prisoners== | ||
'''Roy''': The sheriff had a guy in jail. Did you ever see that old jail was over there? Well, it was in that and (they) had a guy in there, he was a crazy guy, a guy named Aaron Adair. He was a real nut, he was violent and they chained him like a bear. Chained him up in there and along with all else, why the Wilhelms had the contract of feeding the prisoners when there was prisoners. So the old man he was off on his daily duties but they appointed, I guess Haight had something else to do and my Dad, it fell his chore to go and carry the food over there to the prisoners. They made him a mark, see, for as far as that chain come, so (if) he didn't go inside that, old thing couldn't get im'. And he said old Aaron Adair'd just plead with him to come over and visit with him. Pa was too wise. When he was through eatin' why Adair would come and push the things over the line. Pa'd get a broom and rake 'em back. Then another chore, another thing that he had, they had (a) poker game, all night poker game, every night. The guys didn't trust each other, if one man was a winnin' too much and they couldn't catch him he was slick. If they'd a caught him there'd a been a shooting. But if they couldn't catch him why they'd just, some guy when it come his turn to deal, he'd just take the deck they was playing with and take part of the cards out of the deck anyway, ya know and rip 'em in two and just throw 'em out on the floor, order a new deck and they'd start playing with a new deck. And that happened four or five times a night, that some guy that was a havin' hard luck would tear up part of the deck. But the cards were all just alike. They were all bicycle cards except the ones that had been tore up, see, and they're on the floor. Well, Grandpa got Pa a job a sweepin' out the pool hall, the gamblin' place there, kind of straightenin' things up, so he took an interest in cards and he, that's one thing, the old man always played cards and believed in that part of it, 'cause it was part of his boyhood, see and he would gather those cards up and pick out the clean ones that wasn't get messed up, guys spittin' tobacco on 'em or something and he would make up decks and trade these decks around town. Make whole decks out of (them), he run quite a little trade there doing that and made himself a little money, and ''(end of tape side one)'' | '''Roy''': The sheriff had a guy in jail. Did you ever see that old jail was over there? Well, it was in that and (they) had a guy in there, he was a crazy guy, a guy named Aaron Adair. He was a real nut, he was violent and they chained him like a bear. Chained him up in there and along with all else, why the Wilhelms had the contract of feeding the prisoners when there was prisoners. So the old man he was off on his daily duties but they appointed, I guess Haight had something else to do and my Dad, it fell his chore to go and carry the food over there to the prisoners. They made him a mark, see, for as far as that chain come, so (if) he didn't go inside that, old thing couldn't get im'. And he said old Aaron Adair'd just plead with him to come over and visit with him. Pa was too wise. When he was through eatin' why Adair would come and push the things over the line. Pa'd get a broom and rake 'em back. Then another chore, another thing that he had, they had (a) poker game, all night poker game, every night. The guys didn't trust each other, if one man was a winnin' too much and they couldn't catch him he was slick. If they'd a caught him there'd a been a shooting. But if they couldn't catch him why they'd just, some guy when it come his turn to deal, he'd just take the deck they was playing with and take part of the cards out of the deck anyway, ya know and rip 'em in two and just throw 'em out on the floor, order a new deck and they'd start playing with a new deck. And that happened four or five times a night, that some guy that was a havin' hard luck would tear up part of the deck. But the cards were all just alike. They were all bicycle cards except the ones that had been tore up, see, and they're on the floor. Well, Grandpa got Pa a job a sweepin' out the pool hall, the gamblin' place there, kind of straightenin' things up, so he took an interest in cards and he, that's one thing, the old man always played cards and believed in that part of it, 'cause it was part of his boyhood, see and he would gather those cards up and pick out the clean ones that wasn't get messed up, guys spittin' tobacco on 'em or something and he would make up decks and trade these decks around town. Make whole decks out of (them), he run quite a little trade there doing that and made himself a little money, and ''(end of tape side one)'' | ||
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| + | ==House in Concho== | ||
'''Roy''': All the time there, Grandpa's interest in Concho was more and more and this homestead of Lydia's, they had to get on it and stay on it or they'd lose it. They built one of the best houses in the country. Grandpa was a carpenter by trade and he was good workman, I guess. And he built that house that was going to be the old ancestral home and they built a big house. And Grandma was an exceptional cook, somehow the Wilhelms always was kind of particular about how the way their stuff tasted. And when the church authorities would come through and they'd come over to Snowflake and then they wanted to come on to St. Johns, they'd always time it so they could stay with the Wilhelms in Concho. Well, it was quite an honor but it was expensive and worked out both ways, everybody was satisfied. And grandpa'd planted a big orchard there, several orchards and improved their place and everything, but then come the polygamy stuff. And these, the Apostles, they had four or five of 'em all the time down here ridin' herd on these people and they had to advise them. And so the Church members did what they asked 'em to, so they advised Grandpa, in that letter, to get the younger woman and go down, to follow the mountains down into Old Mexico and leave Lydia to prove up on her homestead. | '''Roy''': All the time there, Grandpa's interest in Concho was more and more and this homestead of Lydia's, they had to get on it and stay on it or they'd lose it. They built one of the best houses in the country. Grandpa was a carpenter by trade and he was good workman, I guess. And he built that house that was going to be the old ancestral home and they built a big house. And Grandma was an exceptional cook, somehow the Wilhelms always was kind of particular about how the way their stuff tasted. And when the church authorities would come through and they'd come over to Snowflake and then they wanted to come on to St. Johns, they'd always time it so they could stay with the Wilhelms in Concho. Well, it was quite an honor but it was expensive and worked out both ways, everybody was satisfied. And grandpa'd planted a big orchard there, several orchards and improved their place and everything, but then come the polygamy stuff. And these, the Apostles, they had four or five of 'em all the time down here ridin' herd on these people and they had to advise them. And so the Church members did what they asked 'em to, so they advised Grandpa, in that letter, to get the younger woman and go down, to follow the mountains down into Old Mexico and leave Lydia to prove up on her homestead. | ||
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'''John''': So grandma had filed homestead on it under her name since he'd already used his homestead rights in Utah. | '''John''': So grandma had filed homestead on it under her name since he'd already used his homestead rights in Utah. | ||
| - | '''Roy''': Yeah, that's how come. So, I'm a kind of a detective, maybe it isn't a good thing to be a detective when you're playin' around with your ancestors but here grandpa had orders to go down there and he had orders to take a family on the road with him and you just can't thumb your way. You gotta have something to eat and they were already established there in Concho, so it was one of two things they had a little money and he took the money and left two boys there, teenage boys, to make a living for their mother and the family. And here the detective part comes in. He come to the country in 1881 ''(Ed. Note: 1878)''. That's when they first took up that place in Concho and it was in '84, probably the last part of '84, that he got this letter, it's dated there, to leave. That's not many years. He got paid off a hundred to one when he left the Order up there and he was broke when he left to go down over the mountains, would indicate to me he was a damn poor poker player. But anyhow, be that as it may, you can include that in your writings if you want to but it is, a little gambling, is a long time trait in both families that cropped up from now and then, we got it from the Harris family on the other side too. All because Uncle David Aldridge got lucky in San Bernardino one time. He married a Harris, incidentally, Uncle Bill's sister. He got lucky and won, oh almost a hundred-thousand dollars in a poker game. Two big bags of gold. It was all he could do to load 'em on a horse and course he didn't figure that he'd ever get where he was going with those. The poker game broke up just after daylight see, between daylight and sunup and those other guys didn't figure he'd get to goin' where he was goin'. But he had two what they called horse pistols, big long barreled pistols and he had them already on his saddle loaded full blast. And they didn't know about that and when he went aboard he got out in the middle of the street and he hit a run with the horse, see and he would have really fogged anything up that moved on the side but he made it, made it to where he had backin'. And anyhow, on account of that game why he was always considered a very smart man by the Harris family and quite a few of 'em done a little poker playin' on account of it. | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, that's how come. |
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| + | ==B.H. Wilhelm, Gambling man== | ||
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| + | '''Roy''': So, I'm a kind of a detective, maybe it isn't a good thing to be a detective when you're playin' around with your ancestors but here grandpa had orders to go down there and he had orders to take a family on the road with him and you just can't thumb your way. You gotta have something to eat and they were already established there in Concho, so it was one of two things they had a little money and he took the money and left two boys there, teenage boys, to make a living for their mother and the family. And here the detective part comes in. He come to the country in 1881 ''(Ed. Note: 1878)''. That's when they first took up that place in Concho and it was in '84, probably the last part of '84, that he got this letter, it's dated there, to leave. That's not many years. He got paid off a hundred to one when he left the Order up there and he was broke when he left to go down over the mountains, would indicate to me he was a damn poor poker player. But anyhow, be that as it may, you can include that in your writings if you want to but it is, a little gambling, is a long time trait in both families that cropped up from now and then, we got it from the Harris family on the other side too. All because Uncle David Aldridge got lucky in San Bernardino one time. He married a Harris, incidentally, Uncle Bill's sister. He got lucky and won, oh almost a hundred-thousand dollars in a poker game. Two big bags of gold. It was all he could do to load 'em on a horse and course he didn't figure that he'd ever get where he was going with those. The poker game broke up just after daylight see, between daylight and sunup and those other guys didn't figure he'd get to goin' where he was goin'. But he had two what they called horse pistols, big long barreled pistols and he had them already on his saddle loaded full blast. And they didn't know about that and when he went aboard he got out in the middle of the street and he hit a run with the horse, see and he would have really fogged anything up that moved on the side but he made it, made it to where he had backin'. And anyhow, on account of that game why he was always considered a very smart man by the Harris family and quite a few of 'em done a little poker playin' on account of it. | ||
'''John''': Now his name being Aldridge, was he any relation to John Harris' wife, whose maiden name was Aldridge? | '''John''': Now his name being Aldridge, was he any relation to John Harris' wife, whose maiden name was Aldridge? | ||
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'''Roy''': Yeah, then there was a bad thing happened there. There was some of John Harris' kids, er yeah cousins, married some of the other family, see some of the Aldridges that were cousins, first cousins marrying first cousins and it didn't pay off. There was some kind of bad family traits that they got magnified in that deal, which happens a lot where people get to intermarrying and it just doesn't work out. Well, they had mental troubles these descendants of Uncle David's and they it just wasn't right. Some of them I guess had to be . . . uh put in . . . | '''Roy''': Yeah, then there was a bad thing happened there. There was some of John Harris' kids, er yeah cousins, married some of the other family, see some of the Aldridges that were cousins, first cousins marrying first cousins and it didn't pay off. There was some kind of bad family traits that they got magnified in that deal, which happens a lot where people get to intermarrying and it just doesn't work out. Well, they had mental troubles these descendants of Uncle David's and they it just wasn't right. Some of them I guess had to be . . . uh put in . . . | ||
| - | '''John''': They were committed. | + | '''John''': They were committed. prisioners |
'''Roy''': Yeah, committed, yeah. And that's where that old saying comes from, "we are committed." Now, let me see I've brought ya . . . | '''Roy''': Yeah, committed, yeah. And that's where that old saying comes from, "we are committed." Now, let me see I've brought ya . . . | ||
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'''Roy''': It just adds up. That's not very long, that's not very many years and he was drawing a salary over there, he was drawing a salary here in St. Johns for being captain of the guard along with the rest, my detective mind just got busy on it and matched all these things up. | '''Roy''': It just adds up. That's not very long, that's not very many years and he was drawing a salary over there, he was drawing a salary here in St. Johns for being captain of the guard along with the rest, my detective mind just got busy on it and matched all these things up. | ||
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| + | ==B.H. Wilhelm, Drinking man== | ||
'''John''': Didn't rumor have it that the old man had a drinking problem? | '''John''': Didn't rumor have it that the old man had a drinking problem? | ||
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'''John''': A few years, anyway? | '''John''': A few years, anyway? | ||
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| + | ==B.H. Wilhelm's deathbed clog dance== | ||
'''Roy''': Yeah, he spent a lot more time down there than he ever spent here around Apache County before he went over there. And finally he got Bright's disease something to do with his drinkin', they say. Bright's disease so they say the kidneys begin to crystallize and turn to salt. That's all I know. The doctors 'ud probably dispute that but, handed down to me that's what's called Bright's Disease. It was a killer. You only had so long to live. Finally when he was on his death bed, they was all gathered up and they expected him to go any time and he was kind of, tried to lighten the situation, thought they could use their time better if it was their last visit, to kind of cheer each other up a little. So he jumped out on his bed, danced a good jig for 'em, really hoed 'er down, fell down on the bed and died. That's what Uncle Art said, he was an eye witness. Well, they buried 'im. | '''Roy''': Yeah, he spent a lot more time down there than he ever spent here around Apache County before he went over there. And finally he got Bright's disease something to do with his drinkin', they say. Bright's disease so they say the kidneys begin to crystallize and turn to salt. That's all I know. The doctors 'ud probably dispute that but, handed down to me that's what's called Bright's Disease. It was a killer. You only had so long to live. Finally when he was on his death bed, they was all gathered up and they expected him to go any time and he was kind of, tried to lighten the situation, thought they could use their time better if it was their last visit, to kind of cheer each other up a little. So he jumped out on his bed, danced a good jig for 'em, really hoed 'er down, fell down on the bed and died. That's what Uncle Art said, he was an eye witness. Well, they buried 'im. | ||
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'''John''': Well, if Uncle Art was there and he was already in the family this was quite a few years later. | '''John''': Well, if Uncle Art was there and he was already in the family this was quite a few years later. | ||
| - | '''Roy''': Yeah, he'd married | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, he'd married the [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|little girl]] that went with pa out to get water when the Apaches was up there. |
'''John''': She's younger than your dad was, | '''John''': She's younger than your dad was, | ||
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'''John''': So several years had elapsed? | '''John''': So several years had elapsed? | ||
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| + | ==B.H. Wilhelm grave flood== | ||
'''Roy''': Yeah, and so the old man died and they buried him there in the Silver City graveyard and then there come a hell of a flood and it washed out eight graves. And the old man's was one of 'em and they never found one trace of him or his coffin or any sign any where and they had an organized search of the whole flood course all the way to the Rio Grande 'cause the Rio Grande was on a big flood too and after that there was no use lookin'. | '''Roy''': Yeah, and so the old man died and they buried him there in the Silver City graveyard and then there come a hell of a flood and it washed out eight graves. And the old man's was one of 'em and they never found one trace of him or his coffin or any sign any where and they had an organized search of the whole flood course all the way to the Rio Grande 'cause the Rio Grande was on a big flood too and after that there was no use lookin'. | ||
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'''John''': Well, if that had been buried there for quite some time it probably made a pretty good raft, huh? | '''John''': Well, if that had been buried there for quite some time it probably made a pretty good raft, huh? | ||
| - | '''Roy''': Yeah, he might have gone to sea. There have been several instances where a coffin has been washed out, see, out of a graveyard and dumped into the sea and it makes a sea voyage. It's a perfect thing . . . Well, now we come back to Concho. For awhile Haight was makin' a living for them, for the family. | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, he might have gone to sea. There have been several instances where a coffin has been washed out, see, out of a graveyard and dumped into the sea and it makes a sea voyage. It's a perfect thing... ''(Ed. Note: The flood that washed out the Silver City grave yard actually occurred before Bateman died, and he is safely interred in the Memory Lane Cemetery)'' |
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| + | ==Lydia and family in Concho== | ||
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| + | '''Roy''': Well, now we come back to Concho. For awhile [[Bateman Haight Wilhelm, Jr.|Haight]] was makin' a living for them, for the family. | ||
'''John''': How many younger brothers and sisters were there, or no other brothers just sisters? | '''John''': How many younger brothers and sisters were there, or no other brothers just sisters? | ||
| - | '''Roy''': There was another brother, John. He was young, he was just a toddler and Aunt Fan was | + | '''Roy''': There was another brother, [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John]]. He was young, he was just a toddler and [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Aunt Fan]] was I don't know, yeah [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Aunt Fan]] was there with them 'cause she wouldn't have gone with the [[Grace Tippett Jose|other woman]], see and [[Lydia Isora Wilhelm|Zora]], she was younger than [[Fanny Marilla Wilhelm|Fan]], ''(Ed. Note: Actually, Fan is younger)'' she was there and there was those two girls and [[John Benjamin Wilhelm|John]], guess that's it. And [[Zemira George Wilhelm|Pa]]. |
'''John''': 5 kids? | '''John''': 5 kids? | ||
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'''John''': Were they still teenagers when that happened or just young men? | '''John''': Were they still teenagers when that happened or just young men? | ||
| - | '''Roy''': Yeah, They were teenagers when that happened on account of Haight was supposed to get married and eventually Pa. | + | '''Roy''': Yeah, They were teenagers when that happened on account of Haight was supposed to get married and eventually Pa. |
==Homesteading at Vernon== | ==Homesteading at Vernon== | ||
